What's the meaning of life?

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Steve3007
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Steve3007 »

Tamminen:
All I am saying depends on one axiom of existence: "If I did not exist, there would be nothing."
OK. I'm not sure if you mean that statement to stand on its own, or whether I should still go looking for some of the other posts that you mentioned. If the former, then obviously I have try to examine whether I find it useful enough to believe.

If I did believe it, then I suppose one of the concrete consequences would be that I would make no provision for the support of my loved ones after I die. Because they wouldn't exist. Nothing would. Yet I do intend to do just that. (For example, I have life insurance.) Why?

Because I use the usual process of Inductive Reasoning to conclude that they will continue to exist after I die. I've observed other people, like my grandparents, dying. I've observed from their behaviour, similar in lots of ways to mine, that they probably have minds like me. So things with minds can stop existing and the other things with minds continue to exist. At least, that's my working hypothesis.
I keep wondering if anyone can imagine one's nonexistence, truly. Others', yes, but mine?
I can imagine my non-existence before I was born. Does that count as "truly"? I strongly believe that there was a world prior to my birth. I may be wrong. But it seems like the mental model that best fits the evidence available now. So it'll do me for now. Possibly for the rest of my life.

I've also experienced going to sleep and then, seemingly instantly, waking to find that several hours have passed. Almost like I didn't exist during those hours. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to think of that going on forever. Does that count as "truly"?
Tamminen
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Tamminen »

Steve3007 wrote:If I did believe it, then I suppose one of the concrete consequences would be that I would make no provision for the support of my loved ones after I die. Because they wouldn't exist. Nothing would. Yet I do intend to do just that. (For example, I have life insurance.) Why?
Because the If-part of the axiom is false, as I said. They will exist, don't worry!
I can imagine my non-existence before I was born. Does that count as "truly"? I strongly believe that there was a world prior to my birth. I may be wrong. But it seems like the mental model that best fits the evidence available now. So it'll do me for now. Possibly for the rest of my life.

I've also experienced going to sleep and then, seemingly instantly, waking to find that several hours have passed. Almost like I didn't exist during those hours. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to think of that going on forever. Does that count as "truly"?
The subjective past is problematic in the sense that it seems to be finite though we cannot remember when it began, but the subjective future is endless at least as I see it, and although you seem to be able to think that nothingness can go on for ever, I cannot, because that would mean absolute non-being. How different our minds can be!
Steve3007
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Steve3007 »

Tamminen:
Because the If-part of the axiom is false, as I said. They will exist, don't worry!
Yes, but I came to the same conclusion as you (that my children will still exist after I die and that my life insurance is therefore useful) while believing the if-part to be false, as I explained. What do you think of my reasoning back there?
The subjective past is problematic in the sense that it seems to be finite though we cannot remember when it began,...
Good point. I think it's a continuum, like so much in life that we try to make discrete. My memory doesn't just suddenly start at the moment my first brain cell developed in my mother's womb. Just as my identity didn't. I emerged gradually.
...but the subjective future is endless at least as I see it...
I don't see it as any more endless than the past. I can imagine an endless future just like I can imagine an endless past. Doesn't mean I can remember an endless past or predict an endless future.
and although you seem to be able to think that nothingness can go on for ever, I cannot, because that would mean absolute non-being.
I don't think nothingness can go on forever. The concept of "forever" doesn't exist for me when I'm dead. Just as the concept of 3am doesn't exist for me when I'm asleep. I don't worry too much about the billions of years before I was born either.
How different our minds can be!
Amen to that! Vive la différence!

Some people seem to regard these discussions as akin to a football match. You pick your side, decide who's on your side and who's the enemy, then snipe at your "enemies" and verbally pat your "friends" on the back. I guess that's fun. But it's also fun to just examine how other people think and see if it's anything like how you think.

-- Updated Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:07 pm to add the following --

Correction:

Damn. Important typo in the first part of my reply. I said this " while believing the if-part to be false," when I meant this " while believing the if-part to be true,".
Tamminen
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Tamminen »

Yes, but I came to the same conclusion as you...while believing the if-part to be true
I see the axiom as self-evident and therefore the If-part as false. The final consequence is what we agree on: the world exists independent of our personal existence. The 'I' in the axiom is not identical with 'Tamminen', it can be whoever, it only happens to be 'Tamminen' now that I write this.
I don't see it as any more endless than the past. I can imagine an endless future just like I can imagine an endless past.
I see subjective past necessarily finite and subjective future necessarily endless. I do not speak of my personal past or personal future here. Why the past must be finite needs some reasoning, but let it be now.
I don't think nothingness can go on forever.
No, it makes everything non-existent, including time.
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Bradiation
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Bradiation »

Can I play?
Individually we are all very different as our past memories with the aid of our five senses form our beliefs and meanings. However, from a whole which is what we are all made of (the gift, intellect, reason, etc...) can become self aware of these five senses and memories and can realize that they are mere interpretations. This is the power we have over all other species as they cannot change their programmed genetics. Thus, requires much responsibility.
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LuckyR
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by LuckyR »

Bradiation wrote:Can I play?
Individually we are all very different as our past memories with the aid of our five senses form our beliefs and meanings. However, from a whole which is what we are all made of (the gift, intellect, reason, etc...) can become self aware of these five senses and memories and can realize that they are mere interpretations. This is the power we have over all other species as they cannot change their programmed genetics. Thus, requires much responsibility.
Interesting that you mention the (accurate) difference between individuals yet the more numerous similarities. Yet overly stress the differences between individual mammals (such as humans) and miss the again more numerous similarities.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Belindi »

Tamminem wrote:
The subjective past is problematic in the sense that it seems to be finite though we cannot remember when it began, but the subjective future is endless at least as I see it, and although you seem to be able to think that nothingness can go on for ever, I cannot, because that would mean absolute non-being. How different our minds can be!
My subjective future has a forseeable end and I quite frequently update my plan for dying and thereafter. I won't be an active agent after I die. ' Non-being' depends upon what is your perspective on being.

You will of course be a part of the eternal now as will I. Were we part of the eternal now before we were conceived? I think so , because the eternal now contains no before ;the eternal now is timeless. The eternal now is coterminous with reality.
Tamminen
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Tamminen »

Belindi wrote:the eternal now is timeless
The eternal now is interesting. Wittgenstein writes in Tractatus:
6.4311 If by eternity is understood not endless temporal
duration but timelessness, then he lives
eternally who lives in the present.
But my view is this: Being is succession of presents. If there were a present preceding each present, I could not be here now. If there were the last present, there would be non-being. Therefore both a past without beginning and a future with end are self-contradictory. So being is succession of presents with a beginning and no end.
Steve3007
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Steve3007 »

6.4311 If by eternity is understood not endless temporal
duration but timelessness, then he lives
eternally who lives in the present.
Yes, Ludwig, and if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle.
Belindi
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Belindi »

Tamminem quoted Wittgenstein:
6.4311 If by eternity is understood not endless temporal
duration but timelessness, then he lives
eternally who lives in the present.
Please see Steve's reply, above. I agree with Steve. Who wouldn't! Nevertheless I do find that the thought of eternity is a relief from the trials of the here and now, but clearly not to be obsessed about . I guess that the true Eastern religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism and even the practical Taoism make a lot of the eternal perspective as a psychological escape from hopeless suffering.

I will say in support of theism that it had a capability of metamorphosis into Humanism.
Tamminen
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Tamminen »

Belindi wrote: I guess that the true Eastern religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism and even the practical Taoism make a lot of the eternal perspective as a psychological escape from hopeless suffering.
Yes, it is kind of forgetting the future and death, and escape in that sense. But if it is possible to someone, I admire such an attitude, especially if it is something more than escape. I cannot forget the future and I see eternity in another way, as endlessness of time, as I wrote.
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Bradiation
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Bradiation »

LuckyR wrote:
Bradiation wrote:Can I play?
Individually we are all very different as our past memories with the aid of our five senses form our beliefs and meanings. However, from a whole which is what we are all made of (the gift, intellect, reason, etc...) can become self aware of these five senses and memories and can realize that they are mere interpretations. This is the power we have over all other species as they cannot change their programmed genetics. Thus, requires much responsibility.
Interesting that you mention the (accurate) difference between individuals yet the more numerous similarities. Yet overly stress the differences between individual mammals (such as humans) and miss the again more numerous similarities.
Sometimes there is no need to observe the electrons orbit in order to identify the atom. However thank you for your feedback.
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Phenomexistentialist
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Phenomexistentialist »

cynicallyinsane wrote:What's the meaning of life? What's the purpose?
We must each choose our own! : )
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Phenomexistentialist
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by Phenomexistentialist »

Tamminen wrote:
Belindi wrote:the eternal now is timeless
The eternal now is interesting. Wittgenstein writes in Tractatus:
6.4311 If by eternity is understood not endless temporal
duration but timelessness, then he lives
eternally who lives in the present.
But my view is this: Being is succession of presents. If there were a present preceding each present, I could not be here now. If there were the last present, there would be non-being. Therefore both a past without beginning and a future with end are self-contradictory. So being is succession of presents with a beginning and no end.
Interesting - I didn't know Mr. Wittgenstein had sympathies with Buddhist thought on mindful awareness of the present moment. I like that! I may have to revisit the Tractatus one of these days.
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LuckyR
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Re: What's the meaning of life?

Post by LuckyR »

Bradiation wrote:
LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Interesting that you mention the (accurate) difference between individuals yet the more numerous similarities. Yet overly stress the differences between individual mammals (such as humans) and miss the again more numerous similarities.
Sometimes there is no need to observe the electrons orbit in order to identify the atom. However thank you for your feedback.
True, the nucleus identifies the atom, not the electrons.
"As usual... it depends."
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