Can randomness be caused by something?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Hello
Posts: 48
Joined: January 5th, 2010, 9:55 pm

Post by Hello »

Wanabe,
Hello it may be a good idea to add(not replace) post #43 to your original post in this thread.
Okay, I'll try working on it later.
Ok, that was fun, if you have further difficulty ask: Scott
Thanks for the description. It was really helpful, as you can see.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Couldn't the actor be a conscious being acting on it(directly or indirectly) they are objects too.
Well, it sort of depends on what type of influence is involved. Right now, I have too much of a problem explaining the unconscious actor, so I will provide an example for a conscious being acting on another conscious being.

The person can either:

1. Control the other person

2. Convince him/ her to do an action.

With 1., person doesn't determin anything at all. In fact, he/she is only having the body controlled, which are extensions of the actor, which is the mind. Mind control is only in 2., through persuasion.

In 2., this involves manipulating a person, and convincing the to do something. This involves the person determining something.

Is the influence 1., or 2.?
Though I see what you mean in "2.". Those are both living systems they do have some say in how the leaf falls or how the heart pumps, when the leaf falls when the heart pumps. I have stopped my heart from beating for '23 seconds', I almost blacked out passed out fainted...So I would rather say: that which does not have to be determined by the person/object. Instead of "Not determined by the person/object".
I kind of have difficulty reading this...

So, no other problems with what I've said?

(Edit: Hey Wanabe, you still there?)
User avatar
wanabe
Posts: 3377
Joined: November 24th, 2008, 5:12 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gandhi.
Location: UBIQUITY
Contact:

Post by wanabe »

I edited my previous post where you had confusion.

Honestly Hello I think you are trying to separate to things that should not be separated, then giving the improperly separated things names(labels) that are used to describe other things. I think this is why we are having trouble understanding each other.

Sorry for the late reply, I lost track of the post.
Secret To Eternal Life: Live Life To The Fullest, Help All Others To Do So.Meaning of Life Is Choice. Increase choice through direct perception. Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits-harm+logical consistency=morality.BeTheChange.
Hello
Posts: 48
Joined: January 5th, 2010, 9:55 pm

Post by Hello »

Well, glad to see you haven't abandoned the thread, but, after some recent thought, I realized that me jumping to the conclusion of an unconscious choice is a bit too much.

I think the main point in which I've went wrong is my denial of an unchosen action by something (my point in post #34), so you're right about that.

When living beings are stripped of their bodies, what is left of their consciousness, which is what we are, the person that thinks, feels, and chooses. I assumed that choices are the only thing that comes from it, but I am starting to believe that thinking could be an unchosen action and thoughts are what comes of it.

Though this leaves me with other questions (sigh):

1. What determines this unchosen action? Since we sometimes don't control our thoughts, then what part of ourselves determines what to think?

2. Is thought even an unchosen action? Can't it be like emotions, which describes what we are, not what we do?

The above questions are a little too off topic, so I don't expect you to answer them. It would be helpful if you respond to this, but right now my original question has already been answered. I would thank you for the discussion and I would be taking my leave if you don't respond in anyway.
User avatar
wanabe
Posts: 3377
Joined: November 24th, 2008, 5:12 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gandhi.
Location: UBIQUITY
Contact:

Post by wanabe »

hello wrote:I assumed that choices are the only thing that comes from it, but I am starting to believe that thinking could be an unchosen action and thoughts are what comes of it.


Ones thinking starts thoughts, and at the same time, thoughts start thinking...
1. What determines this unchosen action? Since we sometimes don't control our thoughts, then what part of ourselves determines what to think?
To the first question of the above quote:
If the action is not chosen, then anything could determine it.

To the second question of the above quote:
The key is sometimes we do have total control over our thoughts and sometimes we have less control. There is no singular part of us that determines our thoughts or our thinking. To control ones self(thoughts) their must be harmony between all of our parts.
2. Is thought even an unchosen action? Can't it be like emotions, which describes what we are, not what we do?
Thought can be an unchosen action, it can be similar to emotions. Though I don't think either one of those(thoughts, emotions) fully describes what we are or what we do.

Any thing you write here is on topic; you are the originator of this thread, it can be as narrow or as broad as you like...
Secret To Eternal Life: Live Life To The Fullest, Help All Others To Do So.Meaning of Life Is Choice. Increase choice through direct perception. Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits-harm+logical consistency=morality.BeTheChange.
Hello
Posts: 48
Joined: January 5th, 2010, 9:55 pm

Post by Hello »

If the action is not chosen, then anything could determine it.
But there must be something that initiates the action. In chosen actions, we have an idea of where the action of choice comes from, the mind. However the problem is that this action also comes from the mind, but is unchosen.

There appear to be 2 different types of actions, chosen and unchosen. They seem to originate from the conscious mind, but we only determine the chosen actions, while the unchosen one is determined by somethingelse.

When you suddenly think without your consent, they still came from you, but since you didn't choose to think that specific thought, then it seems that somethingelse that must be a part of you.
The key is sometimes we do have total control over our thoughts and sometimes we have less control. There is no singular part of us that determines our thoughts or our thinking. To control ones self(thoughts) their must be harmony between all of our parts.
If we still have less control but still maintain control, don't we still choose in that case? In fact, a possible theory is that we control all of our thoughts, and we think based on sudden curiosity. Is this what you mean then?
Thought can be an unchosen action, it can be similar to emotions. Though I don't think either one of those(thoughts, emotions) fully describes what we are or what we do.
Emotions describe what we are, like whether we are sad, or happy, but not what we do. Is thinking really an action, or is it a description of who we are at the moment?

If it is like emotions then the question above would have been solved since there is no action.
User avatar
wanabe
Posts: 3377
Joined: November 24th, 2008, 5:12 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gandhi.
Location: UBIQUITY
Contact:

Post by wanabe »

wanabe: If the action is not chosen, then anything could determine it.

Hello: there must be something that initiates the action.

wanabe: anything could also initiate the action.

How is this: chosen actions(yes thoughts can be actions) come from the mind, and unchosen actions come from(but not limited to) emotions; and go through the mind.
If we still have less control but still maintain control, don't we still choose in that case?
We do choose, but we are listening to the input(a compromise so to speak) for better or worse, from third party sources other than the mind alone. This could include emotions, even though they are a part of us they affect our 'would-be' purely logical decisions and input emotion into them.
In fact, a possible theory is that we control all of our thoughts, and we think based on sudden curiosity. Is this what you mean then?
...I think sudden curiosity could be emotion, though it may be logically driven as well.

I often enough find my self following my instincts and emotions and curiosities, though I think long term and logically as well. So it is plausible that what you said in the above quote is true for some. So to answer your question("Is this what you mean then?") directly: yes sometimes.
Secret To Eternal Life: Live Life To The Fullest, Help All Others To Do So.Meaning of Life Is Choice. Increase choice through direct perception. Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits-harm+logical consistency=morality.BeTheChange.
Hello
Posts: 48
Joined: January 5th, 2010, 9:55 pm

Post by Hello »

wanabe: anything could also initiate the action.
Just as long as that thing is the person. What I mean by this is that if there is an unchosen action by a person, there must be some part of the person that is commiting the action.
So to answer your question("Is this what you mean then?") directly: yes sometimes.
What about when the actions are not like that? Would that be an unchosen action from the person?

If yes, then there appear to be 2 different types of actions, chosen and unchosen. They seem to originate from the conscious mind, but we only determine the chosen actions, while the unchosen one is determined by somethingelse.

When you suddenly think without your consent, they still came from you, but since you didn't choose to think that specific thought, then it seems that somethingelse that must be a part of you. The problem is now what that something else is. Do you know what it is?

If our actions were always chosen/controlled (I don't know if this is what you meant), then it would avoid this problem, but then we would return back to the original question about unconscious choices.
User avatar
wanabe
Posts: 3377
Joined: November 24th, 2008, 5:12 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gandhi.
Location: UBIQUITY
Contact:

Post by wanabe »

Hello,
I think you need to answer these questions your self, and answer them for your self. There is something deeper you want to ask, I can tell but you don't know how to word it. Take the time to figure out how you would like to word it, than ask, but by that time you will have your answer.
Hello wrote:When you suddenly think without your consent, they{the thoughts?} still came from you, but since you didn't choose to think that specific thought, then it seems that somethingelse that must be a part of you{It is.}. The problem is{it's not a problem, nor a solution.} now what that something else is. Do you know what it is?{yes but I can't tell you}
Everything...infinity...oneness...there are many things that "it" is called; none of them can describe "it" completely(if you view "it" as a problem though, you may have a much harder time with "it"). "it" defies vocabulary and the spoken word. This is why you must answer "it" for your self.
Secret To Eternal Life: Live Life To The Fullest, Help All Others To Do So.Meaning of Life Is Choice. Increase choice through direct perception. Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits-harm+logical consistency=morality.BeTheChange.
Hello
Posts: 48
Joined: January 5th, 2010, 9:55 pm

Post by Hello »

Everything...infinity...oneness...there are many things that "it" is called; none of them can describe "it" completely(if you view "it" as a problem though, you may have a much harder time with "it"). "it" defies vocabulary and the spoken word. This is why you must answer "it" for your self.
So are you saying that we should leave this concept alone, and only accept its existence? Or are you saying that "it" is a concept unsuitable for words, or to consider?


Wanabe ,if you wish to leave this thread, you may.
User avatar
wanabe
Posts: 3377
Joined: November 24th, 2008, 5:12 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gandhi.
Location: UBIQUITY
Contact:

Post by wanabe »

Hello wrote:So are you saying that we should leave this concept alone, and only accept its existence?
...I'm saying you need to answer this question for your self, and if you feel like attempting to share your answer then please do so.
Or are you saying that "it" is a concept unsuitable for words, or to consider?

"It" can be described by words, but not completely; so words are not entirely suited for "it".

I don't want to leave this thread, but I see we are at a 'wall' until you answer this for your self, I have... MY answer won't make sense to YOU.

So, I leave you to the task of answering the questions you have asked the forum, and my self; for your self, with what you have learned, or will learn.

I have shown you the door, but I can not open it for you.

Feel free to ask what kind of door it is, what its made of, what kind of lock it has, if its locked or open, if their is a guard, if there is a peep hole, etc. 'Time' is not of the essence but the sooner you act the better...
Secret To Eternal Life: Live Life To The Fullest, Help All Others To Do So.Meaning of Life Is Choice. Increase choice through direct perception. Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits-harm+logical consistency=morality.BeTheChange.
Hello
Posts: 48
Joined: January 5th, 2010, 9:55 pm

Post by Hello »

Wanabe,
...I'm saying you need to answer this question for your self, and if you feel like attempting to share your answer then please do so.
Man, this is kind of like a sort of "do it yourself" sort of answer.

But to be sure, do you know what I was asking in that question, because I just wanted to know if I am clear. And do you believe that this question is logical or is it based on ill-defined facts and assumptions?

Honestly, I myself don't have an answer to that particular question, but only proposed some solutions that would avoid the case of an unchosen action all together (no longer an unchosen action), but now I realize that that would raise the first question yet again.
I don't want to leave this thread, but I see we are at a 'wall' until you answer this for your self, I have... MY answer won't make sense to YOU.
If you have an answer regardless, I would wish to hear it (if you haven't already), or just your own summary. If not, then at least tell me where you stand in your beliefs (do you believe in unchosen actions?), because I personally am confused with your some of your responses.
User avatar
wanabe
Posts: 3377
Joined: November 24th, 2008, 5:12 am
Favorite Philosopher: Gandhi.
Location: UBIQUITY
Contact:

Post by wanabe »

It is a a do it your self answer Hello and you should take pride in it because you are willing to put forth the effort. Which is very important, but isn't everything. Lead a horse to water but cannot make him drink(it seems like you want me to drink for you, I simply can't). Basically we have run into so many 'written-language' barriers, one of us does not have the power to answer the others questions adequately so no further progress can be made at this time.

The way you describe the concept to me isn't wrong, but its never been wholly clear regardless of whose fault it is... It seems you are on to some thing, while at the same time your wires get crossed and you may be confusing your self in circular logic, but this is only my understanding. Invite other people into the discussion, maybe would help, you can edit the title on the original post.

I just feel that little progress has been made perhaps dialog with others would help understanding. People usually don't jump into posts that have 3 pages between only two people. Do your best to summarize ideas again. Importantly take time to quote and paraphrase so that people can easily find the original source of any conclusions or loose ends. Define exactly whatever words or phrases you are using by your terms(or use dictionary chosen words after clearly researching each meaning)... Most people are going to tell you that you need: (for the sake or this post) to define: consciousness, thought, actions...and they are going to ague about the definitions for a while and maybe in that we will see where we went wrong.

Hope that helps.:tip-hat:
Secret To Eternal Life: Live Life To The Fullest, Help All Others To Do So.Meaning of Life Is Choice. Increase choice through direct perception. Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits-harm+logical consistency=morality.BeTheChange.
Hello
Posts: 48
Joined: January 5th, 2010, 9:55 pm

Post by Hello »

Yeah, I guess I should try starting a new topic elsewhere.

Wanabe, I personally never expected the topic to fall due to a misunderstanding in words. I thought I was clear in my definition when I started using them, but I guess the confusion started when I began to use new words to describe my old definitions (active-agent-chosen) :D , so I thank you for trying to stick with my discussion.

But still, I have made a couple advances in my thought, though there are still questions that remain unanswered.I would probably try asking a different question next time if I ever get around to it.

Right now I think this discussion is over, so best of luck to you.
User avatar
Maffei
Posts: 38
Joined: September 7th, 2017, 7:34 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Spinoza

Re: Can randomness be caused by something?

Post by Maffei »

I read all the discussion because I will participate in a debate about It. Sorry ir I'm late :P

I'm not sure if the randomness subject necessarily depend of a conscious or unconscious agent, because a conscious action pressuposes that a choice is always active, when it's uncertain if what I call choice is determined by many other causes too, although I have the impression that I'm choosing something. Right now I've tried to pick up two numbers "randomly": 22 and 7 came into my mind. When I think about this numbers, 22 is a number that appeared in a famous jingle of a politician here in Brazil and 7 is a number that I have a kind of sympathy with it. Was these numbers random?

If I can't tell that my choice is a free choice, it would even more difficult to afirm that its consequence is random too.

That's why I feel more secure in this randomness subject when it is discussed as only a matter of how we observe things. In this way, I would say that randomness can be caused by something in two manners (based on Abbagnano's philosophy dictionary):

1. I say an effect is random when it is an unique result of an unique relation of causes (an ice particle never has the strictly equal form of another ice particle).

2. When some probabilities of a determined cause (person or vegetal or computer or whatever) are known but we have too some range of unknown results within that same world analysed. My conclusion is that such effect is unknown not because we can't list the causes, but because we have an insufficient knowledge of the universe in which the causes operate.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021