Qualia exist

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Re: Qualia exist

Post by Belinda »

Thanks McDoodle. I looked up Frank Jackson (qualia) and I found this which concisely states the problem and its importance.

In Frank Jackson's famous thought experiment, Mary is confined to a black-and-white room and educated through black-and-white books and lectures on a black-and-white television. In this way, she learns everything there is to know about the physical world. If physicalism—the doctrine that everything is physical—is true, then Mary seems to know all there is to know. What happens, then, when she emerges from her black-and-white room and sees the color red for the first time? Jackson's knowledge argument says that Mary comes to know a new fact about color, and that, therefore, physicalism is false. The knowledge argument remains one of the most controversial and important arguments in contemporary philosophy. There's Something About Mary—the first book devoted solely to the argument—collects the main essays in which Jackson presents (and later rejects) his argument, along with key responses by other philosophers. These responses are organized around a series of questions: Does Mary learn anything new? Does she gain only know-how (the ability hypothesis), or merely get acquainted with something she knew previously (the acquaintance hypothesis)? Does she learn a genuinely new fact or an old fact in disguise? And finally, does she really know all the physical facts before her release, or is this a "misdescription"? The arguments presented in this comprehensive collection have important implications for the philosophy of mind and the study of consciousness.
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Re: Qualia exist

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Even if there is no qualia, I maintain there is no way Mary could have 'all the facts' because it is practically unfeasible for her to learn all of that. I think it is clear that that amount of information cannot be communicated in verbal language in a single lifetime. To illustrate, the information presented to the eye in terms of the light entering it even in just one second would be more than a terabyte, I estimate, and would only represent a fraction of the information required to explain seeing light which would at least require contextual information (e.g. 'what is light') and neurological-related information (e.g. the instincts or evolutionary knowledge/assumptions of the human brain, information regarding how the optical nerve works). That itself would only be a tiny, tiny fraction of all the information there is to no about the world. Thus, even if qualia do not exist, Mary would learn something new by leaving the room and seeing colors like red. Thus, even if she did learn something new -- which the thought-experiment seems to circularly assume would happen -- it is not evidence that qualia exist. Thus, the conclusion that "qualia exist" based on the thought-experiment is a non-sequitur.
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Re: Qualia exist

Post by Belinda »

Can we clear up something about the use of 'qualia'?

I have been assuming that there is no doubt that qualia exist, because 'qualia' is another name for subjective perceptions. Am I correct? The question that we need to answer, and I do mean need, is whether or not qualia are some radically different form of knowledge from other forms of knowledge such as how the optical nerve works. What is is 'radically different'?

I agree with Scott, that the subjective experience of an effect of light does not signify that qualia are special in some important way. I agree with Dennett that the Mary experiment is flawed, because Mary in her black and white phase did not have all the knowledge at all.
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Re: Qualia exist

Post by Mcdoodle »

Belinda wrote:Can we clear up something about the use of 'qualia'?

I have been assuming that there is no doubt that qualia exist, because 'qualia' is another name for subjective perceptions. Am I correct? The question that we need to answer, and I do mean need, is whether or not qualia are some radically different form of knowledge from other forms of knowledge such as how the optical nerve works. What is is 'radically different'?

I agree with Scott, that the subjective experience of an effect of light does not signify that qualia are special in some important way. I agree with Dennett that the Mary experiment is flawed, because Mary in her black and white phase did not have all the knowledge at all.
As I understand it, the postulate is that qualia are indeed a radically different form of knowledge. They are at the core of the 'hard question' David Chalmers (sorry I can't yet insert links) poses about consciousness. They are the irreducible subjective. Dennett has four criteria for them: that they be ineffable, intrinsic, private, and directly available to consciousness.

For myself, I suspect (a) some of this problem will go away as we learn more about the neural basis of consciousness, and define consciousness better; (b) works of art communicate such experiences very vividly to me (in defiance of Dennett's third condition), but it may be that it requires the 'languages' of music, visual art or poetry, with grammars and syntax beyond our usual restrictions, to represent such experiences.
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Re: Qualia exist

Post by Belinda »

McDoodle I had not known about Dennett's third condition, and I agree with you that works of art permit entry into another's consciousness, if you permit me to put it that way. Some works of art are better for this than others, and I especially name the Romantics in poetry and visual arts. Other poets for instance Alexander Pope , or John Donne, are intellectual by which I mean that their language skillfully conveys ideas of causal connections rather than sense impressions. By contrast with those poets, Keats is almost entirely sensual. I do understand that McDoodle refers to the visual arts as the medium of communication of sensual data, and I do think that the visual arts, although I have to stress Romantic era arts are even more than Romantic poetry means of access to another individual's consciousness.

I guess, although I cannot know, that cave man art is intellectual and ritualistic rather than consciousness- sharing. I think also that most religious art such as ikons and old masters, although they inspire emotions and refined feelings, are generally not direct ways into sensual experiences, as are Turner, and as McDoodle says, Mondrian who is especially interesting;thanks for that!
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Bending Consciousness & What Exactly is Qualia?

Post by Seremonia »

You can use my description as comparison to understand another version of qualia from different sources, please do so.

Links:

1. Mary the color scientist

2. Qualia from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

3. Qualia from Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

4. Bending Consciousness (Complete Version of My Understanding)

----------

In response to "Mary the color scientist", i am asserting that, Mary didn't know where was the object with red color, unless Mary tried to detect through scientifically. But if we put Mary far away from detecting (whether an) object has red color (or not) through scientifically, then Mary didn't know that an object has the red color.

And if we (that already knew what the red color) was perceiving the object with red color and also Mary was perceiving the same object (known by us that has the redness) and tried to make a comparison to another different color (guided by us), then Mary knew that there was something different in between "something (with the red color)" and something else (with no red color whatsoever), by considering that Mary physically has ability to see something (that others will say "it's red color").

Eventually, if we told her, the object that she was perceiving it was the object with red color, then she will be able to identify the red color someday if she finds it.

----------

This is my understanding about qualia. Please use your imagination strongly to follow the description slowly and to live within description, and see if we can understand it (by live within description) and use this to match one of our understanding about perceiving something.

WHAT EXACTLY IS QUALIA?

There is no better way to make clearer understanding other than the analogy. Think of the most subtle (awareness) as calm water. So, any shape that affects the state of water will give a certain visual perception and feeling to consciousness.

For example, a massage can be likened as calm water given a shape similar to a pressure in such a way and it’s similar as feels a massaged. When we feel pain it’s because of the influence of vibration that shapes a consciousness and similar to giving a pressure so sharp piercing the calm water surface, thus forming the pattern of sharpness in the water that similar as give a pain to our consciousness.

The beauty in listening to music can be assumed as the calm water that get a gentle shape that similar to giving a pressure of breeze blowing softly in a certain pattern.

Or the mental state of being depressed is like giving a shape that similar as squeezing water. Or we feel the relief is like giving a shape that similar as water that being widened.Giving a shape to the calm water can be conducted in a certain way to cause feelings through simple manner. The difference of shape that similar as hardening our consciousness, softening our consciousness, these all will be perceived by our consciousness as a possible various senses, such as a shape that similar to a vibration with a certain sharpness that causes pain, also a certain shape that similar to a vibration which gently give a feeling of comfortable.

From just a particular shape that similar to a vibration pattern that gives a more dense shape with different dense levels, as a shape that similar to a : smooth, hard, and so forth vibrations, then it creates specific feeling.

Explanations at the level of our everyday life can be explained as follows: vibration is passed through the sensors on the body transmitted to the brain and the brain are connected to our consciousness, then our consciousness feel the various types of pressures that produce various types of feelings. Our eyes are one of most sensitive tool to receive the most soft stimulus, so that the eye is a tool that delivers the most soft stimulus to consciousness, so we are able to feel the beauty.

For example, feeling of sexual pleasure due to the stimulus from a shape that similar to give a vortex in calm water that creates a stretch, and this gives the sensation as enjoyment of sex. Sex organs have the form of tunnel that reflects a shape that similar to a certain stretch including running through a tunnel, known as the enjoyment of sex. Any shape that provide an influence that similar to forming a stretching through a vortex motion in calm water in different parts of the body, will tend to pull a corresponding feeling.

Another example, when our consciousness get a shape that similar to our very tiny body and somehow get a changing shape continuously that similar as getting a very small touches continuously, then it’s like being stabbed by something so small, and similar to dropping a small objects and sharp to the calm water, and cause a small ripple, and felt by us similar to itchy or tingly.

It asserts that certain circumstances can cause feelings do not always have to go through a touch on the body, but can be done on consciousness itself. This can be done through hypnosis. Through hypnosis, a stimulus can be used only as a symbol which is associated to a certain feeling, so that touch on certain body parts can cause different shape on consciousness that perceived as feel something.

Through hypnosis one’s consciousness can be given a certain form of abstract, and this will give a certain feeling that in accordance with a form that is suggested to one’s consciousness. For example, you can give suggestion (giving a certain shape) about the beauty that similar to a drinking that made from a mixed of softness in the morning with music from mozart which its surface has been smoothed. This will give a certain shape on consciousness and creates a certain feeling.

Or you can also give suggestions such that a person can do the activity but his consciousness did not get a certain shape (which was formed through the interaction of the parts of the body) that similar to not giving a certain pressure to a calm water, so the consciousness does not give a perception of reality and feeling something and similar to programmed automatically - Post Hypnosis.

If there is a different point of view on consciousness, generally known as a different angle (way) in terms of observing, this can provide different shape on consciousness that can provide a different perception of reality and also give a different feeling.

An appearance (shape) in consciousness is a form of treatment in the consciousness and is associated with a particular feeling. To note is the level of a thickness of consciousness in each person may vary, so some shape on consciousness may be similar to a vibration that is so strong on the consciousness with less thickness (high sensitivity), and giving a certain feeling with a strong flavor. While for another shape on consciousness may be similar to a vibration with the same strong level on the consciousness with high thickness (low sensitivity), and giving a certain feeling with a less strong flavor.

We see something because of the particular shape that similar to a strong vibration in such a way as to form a certain impression (mold) in our consciousness that is perceived as an object.

Something that is detected by a system but we can not see, it happened because our consciousness (water) is too thick to be printed (to be shaped) by the vibration of something that can not be seen, so there is no trace, and therefore we can not perceive it.

A certain mold (a specific vibration) have a difference with the printout (on printed materials). You have a flower-shaped mold, and printed to a particular material, then the material has a trail that has linked to a specific pattern of the mold, but with a different experience. From the printout can be traced to a tool with a specific mold pattern (a certain wavelength of light), but the experience of exploring the shape of printout (on consciousness, known generally as perception of reality) is different to a system (tool, a certain wavelength of light) that create a printout (a shape on consciousness) itself.

So, a pattern of the mold as a certain wavelength of light creates a printout on our consciousness with a certain causality that can be tracked back to a certain wavelength of light, but we are exploring (perceiving) a printout from a specific wavelength of light is different to a wavelength of light itself.

So put a certain wavelength of light on consciousness (calm water), it’s similar to giving a shape (printout) on consciousness (calm water), and it’s similar to give a certain pressure to a calm water (consciousness), and these give us an experience of perceiving and feeling something.

So qualia is (like) very transparent surface with many possible contours, and with its different level of sensitiveness that react relevantly to something that change it (the surface of the self), that leads to perception about certain realities and to a certain feeling that in accordance with depth of sensitivity that inherent to a certain contour of the shapes of surface as feelings of consciousness.

----------

Additional Understanding (to reinforce understanding about qualia)

BENDING CONSCIOUSNESS

I Have Feeling

Surface is the feeling. Surface is constructed with many different shapes of surface. These contours represent different feelings.

The shapes from surface are the source of our basic needs, like hungry, thirsty and any possible desires that came from our body. It's because our surface (feeling) is strongly attached (related) to our body, therefore changing on our body (imbalance on our body) will eventually change the contour of our surface (feeling) and because of this, we felt something.

When our bodies react that generally known as "I am hungry", then this will change the contour of specific surface (feeling).

Hypnotism

It's the way that we can do to bend our original shape (contour) of specific feeling without the needs of changing our behavior (our actions with our body). By doing hypnotism, someone can feel something independently without the needs of the body to be induced.

What is " I am alive"?

It's when our shape of surface is changing (bending) dynamically to different contour. Changing from one contour to another different contour. This changing continuously is vibration. Vibration of our feeling.

What is enlightened?

It's when our shape of surface, somehow, are waving closer to the contours of (typical of) Super Surface. The more our shape of surface is changing closer to another level of contour from higher level of Super Surface, the more calm we are. We tend to feel wider horizon, peacefully and there will be no dualism.

Calm Behavior

The more changing of the surface closer to the shape that typical to Super ISurface, the more calm for someone's heart (emotions).

Consistency

A specific shape of surface may be changed by stretching and shrinking to create a specific sensation "i am feeling something" within allowed boundary (without far away from its specific shape).

How we do stretching and shrinking a specific shape of surface can be provided through different causes, but may be still connected to one feeling.

For example: seeing something may be considered as triggering specific feeling, but seeing something else may be considered as triggering same feeling. Different causes may provide the same feeling. Different causes may provide the same changing on specific shape of surfaces that creates the same feeling.

Under hypnotized, someone's specific shape of surface may be stretched and shrunk to create specific feeling without the need of perceiving something that usually needed to provide the same feeling.

Color

When we saw red color, this color might change the shape of our surface to the specific extent that would make us sense "there was red color of something" or "there was specific shape that consistently made us perceive red color of something".

Different events (for example, through hypnotized) might force us to perceive red color without perceive any object that usually known as an object with red color. But that doesn't mean there is no red color. There is red color in the sense that there is specific shape of our surfaces that represent external object called red color.

There is inconsistency that for a specific shape may be stretched or shrunk with different causes to create an experience about red color. But there is consistency that if for any cause has ability to stretch and shrink our surface to the specific shape that previously known as shape related to red color, then we will experience consistently there is red color (whether we saw an object with red color or blue color). There is potential on ourselves to experience red color without depending on specific cause.

-- Updated September 22nd, 2012, 8:48 am to add the following --

You can use my description as comparison to understand another version of qualia from different sources, please do so.

Links:

1. Mary the color scientist

1. Qualia from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

2. Qualia from Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

----------

In response to "Mary the color scientist", i am asserting that, Mary didn't know where was the object with red color, unless Mary tried to detect through scientifically. But if we put Mary far away from detecting (whether an) object has red color (or not) through scientifically, then Mary didn't know that an object has the red color.

And if we (that already knew what the red color was) was perceiving the object with red color and also Mary was perceiving the same object (known by us that has the redness) and tried to make a comparison to another different color (guided by us), then Mary knew that there was something different in between "something (with the red color)" and something else (with no red color whatsoever), by considering that Mary physically has ability to see something (that others will say "it's red color").

Eventually, if we told her, the object that she was perceiving it was the object with red color, then she will be able to identify the red color someday if she finds it.

----------

This is my understanding about qualia. Please use your feeling, or your imagination to follow the description slowly and to live within description, and see if we can live within it (to understand) and to use this to match one of our understanding about perceiving something.

WHAT EXACTLY IS QUALIA?

Don't take it literally, it's just an analogy.

There is no better way to make clearer understanding other than the analogy. Think of the most subtle (awareness) as calm water. So, any shape that affects the state of water will give a certain visual perception and feeling to consciousness.

For example, a massage can be likened as calm water given a shape similar to a pressure in such a way and it’s similar as feels a massaged. When we feel pain it’s because of the influence of vibration that shapes a consciousness and similar to giving a pressure so sharp piercing the calm water surface, thus forming the pattern of sharpness in the water that similar as give a pain to our consciousness.

The beauty in listening to music can be assumed as the calm water that get a gentle shape that similar to giving a pressure of breeze blowing softly in a certain pattern.

Or the mental state of being depressed is like giving a shape that similar as squeezing water. Or we feel the relief is like giving a shape that similar as water that being widened.Giving a shape to the calm water can be conducted in a certain way to cause feelings through simple manner. The difference of shape that similar as hardening our consciousness, softening our consciousness, these all will be perceived by our consciousness as a possible various senses, such as a shape that similar to a vibration with a certain sharpness that causes pain, also a certain shape that similar to a vibration which gently give a feeling of comfortable.

From just a particular shape that similar to a vibration pattern that gives a more dense shape with different dense levels, as a shape that similar to a : smooth, hard, and so forth vibrations, then it creates specific feeling.

Explanations at the level of our everyday life can be explained as follows: vibration is passed through the sensors on the body transmitted to the brain and the brain are connected to our consciousness, then our consciousness feel the various types of pressures that produce various types of feelings. Our eyes are one of most sensitive tool to receive the most soft stimulus, so that the eye is a tool that delivers the most soft stimulus to consciousness, so we are able to feel the beauty.

For example, feeling of sexual pleasure due to the stimulus from a shape that similar to give a vortex in calm water that creates a stretch, and this gives the sensation as enjoyment of sex. Sex organs have the form of tunnel that reflects a shape that similar to a certain stretch including running through a tunnel, known as the enjoyment of sex. Any shape that provide an influence that similar to forming a stretching through a vortex motion in calm water in different parts of the body, will tend to pull a corresponding feeling.

Another example, when our consciousness get a shape that similar to our very tiny body and somehow get a changing shape continuously that similar as getting a very small touches continuously, then it’s like being stabbed by something so small, and similar to dropping a small objects and sharp to the calm water, and cause a small ripple, and felt by us similar to itchy or tingly.

It asserts that certain circumstances can cause feelings do not always have to go through a touch on the body, but can be done on consciousness itself. This can be done through hypnosis. Through hypnosis, a stimulus can be used only as a symbol which is associated to a certain feeling, so that touch on certain body parts can cause different shape on consciousness that perceived as feel something.

Through hypnosis one’s consciousness can be given a certain form of abstract, and this will give a certain feeling that in accordance with a form that is suggested to one’s consciousness. For example, you can give suggestion (giving a certain shape) about the beauty that similar to a drinking that made from a mixed of softness in the morning with music from mozart which its surface has been smoothed. This will give a certain shape on consciousness and creates a certain feeling.

Or you can also give suggestions such that a person can do the activity but his consciousness did not get a certain shape (which was formed through the interaction of the parts of the body) that similar to not giving a certain pressure to a calm water, so the consciousness does not give a perception of reality and feeling something and similar to programmed automatically - Post Hypnosis.

If there is a different point of view on consciousness, generally known as a different angle (way) in terms of observing, this can provide different shape on consciousness that can provide a different perception of reality and also give a different feeling.

An appearance (shape) in consciousness is a form of treatment in the consciousness and is associated with a particular feeling. To note is the level of a thickness of consciousness in each person may vary, so some shape on consciousness may be similar to a vibration that is so strong on the consciousness with less thickness (high sensitivity), and giving a certain feeling with a strong flavor. While for another shape on consciousness may be similar to a vibration with the same strong level on the consciousness with high thickness (low sensitivity), and giving a certain feeling with a less strong flavor.

We see something because of the particular shape that similar to a strong vibration in such a way as to form a certain impression (mold) in our consciousness that is perceived as an object.

Something that is detected by a system but we can not see, it happened because our consciousness (water) is too thick to be printed (to be shaped) by the vibration of something that can not be seen, so there is no trace, and therefore we can not perceive it.

A certain mold (a specific vibration) have a difference with the printout (on printed materials). You have a flower-shaped mold, and printed to a particular material, then the material has a trail that has linked to a specific pattern of the mold, but with a different experience. From the printout can be traced to a tool with a specific mold pattern (a certain wavelength of light), but the experience of exploring the shape of printout (on consciousness, known generally as perception of reality) is different to a system (tool, a certain wavelength of light) that create a printout (a shape on consciousness) itself.

So, a pattern of the mold as a certain wavelength of light creates a printout on our consciousness with a certain causality that can be tracked back to a certain wavelength of light, but we are exploring (perceiving) a printout from a specific wavelength of light is different to a wavelength of light itself.

So put a certain wavelength of light on consciousness (calm water), it’s similar to giving a shape (printout) on consciousness (calm water), and it’s similar to give a certain pressure to a calm water (consciousness), and these give us an experience of perceiving and feeling something.

So qualia is (like) very transparent surface with many possible contours, and with its different level of sensitiveness that react relevantly to something that change it (the surface of the self), that leads to perception about certain realities and to a certain feeling that in accordance with depth of sensitivity that inherent to a certain contour of the shapes of surface as feelings of consciousness.

----------

Additional Understanding (to reinforce understanding about qualia)

BENDING CONSCIOUSNESS

I Have Feeling

Surface is the feeling. Surface is constructed with many different shapes of surface. These contours represent different feelings.

The shapes from surface are the source of our basic needs, like hungry, thirsty and any possible desires that came from our body. It's because our surface (feeling) is strongly attached (related) to our body, therefore changing on our body (imbalance on our body) will eventually change the contour of our surface (feeling) and because of this, we felt something.

When our bodies react that generally known as "I am hungry", then this will change the contour of specific surface (feeling).

Hypnotism

It's the way that we can do to bend our original shape (contour) of specific feeling without the needs of changing our behavior (our actions with our body). By doing hypnotism, someone can feel something independently without the needs of the body to be induced.

What is " I am alive"?

It's when our shape of surface is changing (bending) dynamically to different contour. Changing from one contour to another different contour. This changing continuously is vibration. Vibration of our feeling.

What is enlightened?

It's when our shape of surface, somehow, are waving closer to the contours (with typical) of Super Surface. The more our shape of surface is changing closer to another level of contour from higher level of Super Surface, the more calm we are. We tend to feel wider horizon, peacefully and there will be no dualism.

Calm Behavior

The more changing of the surface closer to the shape that typical to Super ISurface, the more calm for someone's heart (emotions).

Consistency

A specific shape of surface may be changed by stretching and shrinking to create a specific sensation "i am feeling something" within allowed boundary (without far away from its specific shape).

How we do stretching and shrinking a specific shape of surface can be provided through different causes, but may be still connected to one feeling.

For example: seeing something may be considered as triggering specific feeling, but seeing something else may be considered as triggering same feeling. Different causes may provide the same feeling. Different causes may provide the same changing on specific shape of surfaces that creates the same feeling.

Under hypnotized, someone's specific shape of surface may be stretched and shrunk to create specific feeling without the need of perceiving something that usually needed to provide the same feeling.

Color

When we saw red color, this color might change the shape of our surface to the specific extent that would make us sense "there was red color of something" or "there was specific shape that consistently made us perceive red color of something".

Different events (for example, through hypnotized) might force us to perceive red color without perceive any object that usually known as an object with red color. But that doesn't mean there is no red color. There is red color in the sense that there is specific shape of our surfaces that represent external object called red color.

There is inconsistency that for a specific shape may be stretched or shrunk with different causes to create an experience about red color. But there is consistency that if for any cause has ability to stretch and shrink our surface to the specific shape that previously known as shape related to red color, then we will experience consistently there is red color (whether we saw an object with red color or blue color). There is potential on ourselves to experience red color without depending on specific cause.
Last edited by Seremonia on September 21st, 2012, 10:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Qualia exist

Post by YouDoNotKnowMeScott »

Dear, Seremonia, my auburn candle ghost.

I do not think that the vortex between sex and the surface of the water corresponds to everything. Stick your finger in your ear, then jam on those ear drums. It will not be pleasant, even though it consists of the same factors that create the coincidental correlation between sex and water.
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Re: Qualia exist

Post by Seremonia »

YouDoNotKnowMeScott wrote:Dear, Seremonia, my auburn candle ghost.

I do not think that the vortex between sex and the surface of the water corresponds to everything. Stick your finger in your ear, then jam on those ear drums. It will not be pleasant, even though it consists of the same factors that create the coincidental correlation between sex and water.
Oh Dear, "ButYouAreCommunicatingNow" as i already predicted. I don't have better way to argue with you to clarify this understanding.

I accept your objection whole heartedly, and there is no way for me to find better analogy to describe this, since analogy will reduce the essence of anything (besides, defining is already reducing something). I just want to point on the softness of our feelings. Please, if you have better analogy, you can keep it on yours.

Since i knew it through my own way (that i can't tell you, since hard to describe it either). This analogy is the closest JUST TO DESCRIBE ONE SIDE OF HUGE OF SOMETHING OF OURSELVES.

I am using water just trying to involve our feelings to feel it, or you can replace "the water" with "the surface" as i already used on my description.

You may disagree, or skip this. Please do so. I just share this and consider this is just as something passing by and someone will stick on this because of the sameness in between someone and me and enriching each other. And I maybe wrong on this :)

Anyway, thanks
Last edited by Seremonia on September 21st, 2012, 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qualia exist

Post by YouDoNotKnowMeScott »

Dear, Seremonia.

How can you describe X, if you do not understand enough of X? Please, tell me how this works:

First, you tell me that you have difficulties demonstrating an idea.

Lastly, you then tell me that this idea that you still can not get a grasp on, is some enlightening idea that encompasses the entire world as a whole.

Why is this so?

Is the idea not supposed to be placed under framework, then acted on? Why are you acting on an idea that eludes your senses?
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Re: Qualia exist

Post by Seremonia »

YouDoNotKnowMeScott wrote:Dear, Seremonia.

How can you describe X, if you do not understand enough of X? Please, tell me how this works:

First, you tell me that you have difficulties demonstrating an idea.

Lastly, you then tell me that this idea that you still can not get a grasp on, is some enlightening idea that encompasses the entire world as a whole.

Why is this so?
Oh Dear "IamRespondingOnYou", It's like telling what "the sweetness is" to others, or what "the hardness is" to others, when the two us have different ways to perceive the sweetness and the hardness. I can't say further, but this may clarify in between us.

There are three different ways to understand something: by observing it, by tasting it and be it (melt just to getting closer to it). I use analogy to make it to be understood, and my difficulty is not on how to describe it, but i can't put others to the specific extent of my own experiences.

If somehow we want to describe "what the stone is", then only the stone itself that has ability to understand better than us.
Last edited by Seremonia on September 21st, 2012, 11:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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YouDoNotKnowMeScott
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Joined: September 21st, 2012, 8:16 pm

Re: Qualia exist

Post by YouDoNotKnowMeScott »

My dear, Semonia.

The sweetness and roughness is only differential via our own differential sensories that are attributed genuinely. You are comparing the shadow of an orange, to that of a shadow of an apple, by assuming that these physisological differences between what we taste, touch, hear, et cetera are equivalent to your personal experiences. It is only when you claim that there is something that your senses are unable to detect, that mounts the controversy horse.

Your own experiences are unable to construct building blocks, for your own experiences are only as reflective and metaphysical as your reflection in the mirror. There is much that you do not see, for you think you see what you feel, when what you feel is not what you see.

The stone is an inanimate object, albeit I understand where you are coming from. Might I suggest that, if you can not answer your own existence, then perhaps you also can not answer your own experiences?
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Seremonia
Posts: 111
Joined: June 17th, 2012, 1:09 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Re: Qualia exist

Post by Seremonia »

YouDoNotKnowMeScott wrote:My dear, Semonia.

The sweetness and roughness is only differential via our own differential sensories that are attributed genuinely. You are comparing the shadow of an orange, to that of a shadow of an apple, by assuming that these physisological differences between what we taste, touch, hear, et cetera are equivalent to your personal experiences. It is only when you claim that there is something that your senses are unable to detect, that mounts the controversy horse.

Your own experiences are unable to construct building blocks, for your own experiences are only as reflective and metaphysical as your reflection in the mirror. There is much that you do not see, for you think you see what you feel, when what you feel is not what you see.

The stone is an inanimate object, albeit I understand where you are coming from. Might I suggest that, if you can not answer your own existence, then perhaps you also can not answer your own experiences?
My Dear "YouAreStillCommunicatingWithMe", According to this post, this is my (closer to) the last response to others related to my understanding.

Further, just to see if this understanding can be considered as "it makes sense", one of us can apply this on Artificial Intelligence. Perhaps through this we can see the benefit and perceive it as a fact and do not tend to abstract..

Yes, I am full with weakness, and somehow I can't answer to all of my own experiences. I will leave it as mystery to the specific extent :)
Last edited by Seremonia on September 21st, 2012, 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am free not because I have choices, but I am free because I rely on God with quality assured!
YouDoNotKnowMeScott
Posts: 35
Joined: September 21st, 2012, 8:16 pm

Re: Qualia exist

Post by YouDoNotKnowMeScott »

Dear, Seremonia.

May I ask why you do not wish to discuss much of your self?
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Seremonia
Posts: 111
Joined: June 17th, 2012, 1:09 am
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Re: Qualia exist

Post by Seremonia »

YouDoNotKnowMeScott wrote:Dear, Seremonia.

May I ask why you do not wish to discuss much of your self?
Dear "IDoNotKnowYou". May I ask why "IDoNotKnowYou", it's because we are not discussing about someone, rather than we are discussing about specific topics, didn't we? Please stick with the topic or my post, and you can disagree or skip it.

:)
I am free not because I have choices, but I am free because I rely on God with quality assured!
YouDoNotKnowMeScott
Posts: 35
Joined: September 21st, 2012, 8:16 pm

Re: Qualia exist

Post by YouDoNotKnowMeScott »

Dear, Seremonia.

I believe that everyone's character is attributing their ideas, therefore your ethos has everything to do with what you do and say.

Do you agree?
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