What is the reason for Human existence?

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Eaglerising
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Eaglerising »

Pelegrin1, It wasn't my intention to be sarcastic. Quite often what I write is my way of seeing what is contained within my mind. Yes, I even talk to myself a lot. It is another way of seeing what is contained within me. Hearing adds to seeing and seeing adds to hearing. Attentively listening to what you read out load is more insightful than reading something silently. In other words, most of I say or write is intended more for methan to another.

The of "law of cause and effect" has helped me see that "everything serves a purpose" and vice versa. Everything we have experienced prepares us for what we are about to experience. Whenever we judge or criticize an experience it prevents us from seeing that it serves a purpose. More often than not numerous ones. On the other hand, when we ask ourselves, "what purpose does that serve" we see what we experienced from an entirely different perspective.

Communicating an understanding is extremely difficult because everyone is uniquely different. No two people have had the exact same experiences, the same vocabulary, the same perception, and the same emotional attachment to the words they use. After I hit the submit button on the last comment I made to you, I could see that it would be impossible for anyone to "understand" what I was saying because they hadn't experienced it as I have. Not only that, I saw it took an unimaginable number of different experiences to obtain that understanding. And more than likely. what I experience in the future will alter my present understanding. Furthermore, some things are almost impossible to express, what alone communicate them to another.

Seeing that everyone serves a purpose allows you to see everyone has value.
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Mil0
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Mil0 »

No one can prove or disprove the existence of God and design patterns, and both may be nothing more than abstract concepts created by humans. Assuming there is an omnipotent and omniscient God, what is It’s purpose? God knows everything. It’s been there and done all that. God can never be pleasantly surprised or disappointed, has nothing new to learn or do, nothing can challenge God, anything God wants done will be done successfully. It seems to me that God does not have any purpose; therefore, why should ants and humans be concerned with purpose? I’m happy just existing – enjoying physical sensations, being surprised, disappointed, learning, and communicating with other people because I do not know everything that ever has been or will be said.
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Papus79
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Papus79 »

I usually try to stay out of huge threads because there's no way I'd be able to go back and read every last post to see if what I have to say has already been said. Being we're on a topic this big and general I'll just cast my vote.

We come here without a clue, leave without a clue, and between those to dates you'll encounter a lot of educated guesses ranging from highly persuasive to truly awful. The day someone can validate out-of-body experiences they might at least be able to say something about death, but as far as I can tell there's been so seer, scryer, or astral traveler who hasn't given us just as much drivel as we get here well planted in our bodies. That tells us that these qualities are either a) hallucinogenic or b) validating that the universe on all levels is such a tangled heap of causes that by the time anyone's anywhere close to understanding the nature of existence they probably haven't been a human being or an organic life form for billions if not trillions of years. Buddhist nirvana and paranirvana seem to take perhaps the best shot in my opinion at approaching the raw and terrifying complexity of it all.
Eaglerising
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Eaglerising »

Proof ends all inquiry. On the other hand, there is a never ending inquiry into a mystery. There is a vast difference between knowledge and understanding. Likewise there is a difference between understanding and wisdom.

When we say "I don't know" our mind responds differently than when we say "I know." The known ends inquiry whereas the unknown produces it. Evolution is a product of query, experience, and observation which produces other queries or investigations. This suggests or indicates the possibility man's purpose, as well as everything living, is to examine, experience and understand the unknown. Man's pursuit, experience, and examination of the unknown has been recorded throughout recorded history. The essence of "faith" is venturing into the unknown.
Pelegrin_1
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Pelegrin_1 »

Eaglerising wrote:Pelegrin1, It wasn't my intention to be sarcastic. Quite often what I write is my way of seeing what is contained within my mind. Yes, I even talk to myself a lot. It is another way of seeing what is contained within me. Hearing adds to seeing and seeing adds to hearing. Attentively listening to what you read out load is more insightful than reading something silently. In other words, most of I say or write is intended more for methan to another.

The of "law of cause and effect" has helped me see that "everything serves a purpose" and vice versa. Everything we have experienced prepares us for what we are about to experience. Whenever we judge or criticize an experience it prevents us from seeing that it serves a purpose. More often than not numerous ones. On the other hand, when we ask ourselves, "what purpose does that serve" we see what we experienced from an entirely different perspective.
I see it as being quite different to talk about "serving a purpose" as opposed to existing for some intrinsic future purpose. Things may certainly, or virtually always, come into existence because they served some purpose at that time, thus being the result of some purpose, and thus serving that purpose. But it's quite another thing to have some future purpose. The purpose for which we, or anything, came into existence may later become obsolete, but then other purposes can be created; or in the case of humans, we can create our own purposes. But none of that means that we have some intrinsic future purpose that lies outside of any purpose that we create for ourselves.

-- Updated Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:25 pm to add the following --
Eaglerising wrote:Proof ends all inquiry. On the other hand, there is a never ending inquiry into a mystery. There is a vast difference between knowledge and understanding. Likewise there is a difference between understanding and wisdom.

When we say "I don't know" our mind responds differently than when we say "I know." The known ends inquiry whereas the unknown produces it. Evolution is a product of query, experience, and observation which produces other queries or investigations. This suggests or indicates the possibility man's purpose, as well as everything living, is to examine, experience and understand the unknown. Man's pursuit, experience, and examination of the unknown has been recorded throughout recorded history. The essence of "faith" is venturing into the unknown.
I think you overstepped yourself with the bolded part. The great majority of living things on this planet can't do those 3 things on your list: examine, experience and understand, at least not in any sense that humans use those words. In fact, evolution is essentially a genetic response to environmental conditions, and then to extend that response to the best optimal level, and continually adapt to changes that exist over extended periods. You seem to be mixing what humans do and what genes do. At the genetic level, the only purpose is to survive and thrive/proliferate. So based on that, one could say, since we are all made up of genetic material, our purpose is to survive and thrive/proliferate. But I think that when humans ask about a reason or purpose for human existence, they're referring to some imagined greater purpose beyond simply extending the species or the genetic line in the same way all living things do. Your confounding of human capacities with processes of evolution doesn't jibe.
Eaglerising
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Eaglerising »

Let's not get hung up on our perception of a word. Something as small as bacteria experience and adapt to that experience which is evolution. The same with a fruit fly. I recently seen on the evening news someone were bees were responding, adapting, and learning to sugar water. I have seen numerous movies of animals learning by trial and error. If something is alive, it is going to experience something and respond to that experience. True, man can think and animals cannot. The search for food and shelter is a quest into the unknown.
Pelegrin_1
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Pelegrin_1 »

Eaglerising wrote:Let's not get hung up on our perception of a word. Something as small as bacteria experience and adapt to that experience which is evolution. The same with a fruit fly. I recently seen on the evening news someone were bees were responding, adapting, and learning to sugar water. I have seen numerous movies of animals learning by trial and error. If something is alive, it is going to experience something and respond to that experience. True, man can think and animals cannot. The search for food and shelter is a quest into the unknown.
My main argument, if this can be simplified into such, is the difference between a resulting purpose and some sort of pre-destined future purpose. I think it is very reasonable to say that virtually everything, if not everything, serves as some resulting purpose, intended or otherwise, but even then "intention" is very debatable. However, that doesn't mean that everything that exists has some future purpose, and as such many species have gone extinct through very natural and not necessarily extreme circumstances. But does everything go extinct, or at least promptly go extinct, when its original purpose (from which it came into being) is no longer necessary? I don't think so. Does today's Earth really need humanity, for instance? I don't think our existence today is because natural processes need us to exist or result in making sure that we continue to exist. We can maintain our existence simply because in part we have the power to do so. Take another instance... If we can develop the capacity to get to and colonize another planet, at least to create conditions in which we can survive there, does that mean that that planet had as its purpose for us to be there? I certainly don't think so. We will have created that purpose for the planet, and we'll be using the planet for our purposes, purposes that we design, not that were necessarily destined to be.
Eaglerising
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Eaglerising »

What is the reason or purpose of anything to exist? Understanding the reason for human existence requires an understanding of the "nature of life" and "evolution." The term 'life" meaning both the physical and non-physical. Achieving that understanding requires approaching it from the "unknown" as opposed to the "known." I say that because the known colors and corrupts what is being investigated. I say that based upon personal experience and that of others.

Furthermore, the known is unable to challenge itself. It takes something entirely different from the known to challenge it. Your hand can cannot observe or understanding itself. Likewise, it takes something other than yourself to observe and understand yourself.
Needless to say, I nor anyone else can do that for you. Only you can. This is another reason why I pointed out in an earlier post, it's impossible for me or anyone to provide the understanding you seek.

I have been examining the nature of life and the relationship between humans and life for over 40 years. Many of those years involved more than 30-hours a week. I spent an entire year crisscrossing the US, interviewing the brightest minds in a wide variety of fields and occupations. Over the course of those years, my understanding of this subject kept changing and evolving.

Finally, it is wise NOT to believe or reject (disbelieve) anything I have stated in this string. But, rather consider it a "possibility." It's an examination that requires taking the time and trouble to examine the validity of it yourself, which involves challenging and examining everything you believe or think you knew. Very few people are willing to do that.
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Papus79
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Papus79 »

Purpose is a sticky conversation these days and ends up getting a lot of flack from postmodernists (albeit take that at it's own worth or lack thereof).

A lot of the more 2000's first-draft new atheists seemed to be very big on hammering the idea home that there is no purpose, that it's generated by minds. I see a lot of them starting to second guess themselves watching what's happening on college campuses these days, in the political arena, and the pandoras box of crazy that's opened up is starting to make them wonder if some aspect of it isn't needed as a civics and anti-societal erosion forum.

I'm starting to think, somewhat along the ecosystem model, that you can argue purpose to the extent that one organism needs another organism in the life cycle and if you're part of either one of the earth's balancing feedback loops or part of one of society's feedback loops you, your philosophy, your contrarian-ness and type of contrarian-ness, or your complete status quo-ness, is on one side or the other of a set of balances. Similarly if you're educating yourself and sharpening your mind on something that'll in any way, shape or form be turned back outward and passed on to other people. That's a future option on yourself, it's a gift you'll give back at a later date. To the extent that our culture is growing increasingly aware of the pernicious effect our industry and transportation methods have on the environment we're getting very self-aware that were' behaving perniciously relatively to our place in the biome and that tapping our habits and outputs down has a very clear purpose.

Additionally if you're a full determinist or at least determinism with the possibility of some random noise causing some chaos in the blend (not free will necessarily) then you can easily see time as a frozen solid where your past, present, and future are all frozen in the same sort of amber. In that situation actually your future is as real as your now, as is your past, so in that sense your past, present, and future purpose relative to the society and biome you live in would be very real things.

I get that this is relative to feedback cycles on earth, it may not be purpose that extends beyond earth at all, but it's still within its relative range under the purpose of equilibrium reactions.
Eaglerising
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Eaglerising »

Papus 79, the beauty about "reality" is that can withstand any challenge or test. An individual's quest for reality or truth is very personal and isn't concerned about what others believe, think, or know. Concerning your self about what others think, know and believe is a distraction which prevents you from being "focused" on your objective.

There are consequences associated with every belief or thought because they causes us to act, in turn, there are consequences (good and bad) associated with every act, which we are held accountable. Even the "law of the land" in the US recognizes that reality.

Attempting to proof or disproof something to another is a distraction. Do you need to prove to another you are hungry or if you had an orgasm during sex? Reality or truth is an "experiential concept" that cannot be proved or disproved. Furthermore, proof is relative term. Thus, it is difficult to get a universal acceptance of proof. Attempting to prove or disprove anything is a contest, which often causes conflict.

Everything isn't as it appears to be. This is why it's wise to view everything as a "possibility" rather than foregone conclusion. This is why I approach everything from the unknown and don't reach a conclusion until I have tested what I am examining scientifically, spiritually, and philosophically and the findings of all three are in agreement.
Pelegrin_1
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Pelegrin_1 »

Eaglerising wrote:Furthermore, the known is unable to challenge itself. It takes something entirely different from the known to challenge it. Your hand can cannot observe or understanding itself. Likewise, it takes something other than yourself to observe and understand yourself.
Needless to say, I nor anyone else can do that for you. Only you can. This is another reason why I pointed out in an earlier post, it's impossible for me or anyone to provide the understanding you seek.
Perhaps it's presumptuous of me, but what 'understanding am I seeking'. I've simply been stating my personal thinking on the topic of the thread. And as of yet, you haven't said anything to cause me to change or alter that, other than to cause me to attempt to refine my statement so as to clarify two different types or points in time with respect to "purpose": A purpose that something fulfills, thus that thing is the result of fulfilling that purpose; and the idea of some future purpose that something is destined to have. And I make this distinction because it's generally the case when people speak of a reason or purpose for human existence that they're referring to some imagined greater purpose, some human destiny. To which my thinking is that there is no such purpose, other than what we or humanity creates for itself.
Finally, it is wise NOT to believe or reject (disbelieve) anything I have stated in this string. But, rather consider it a "possibility." It's an examination that requires taking the time and trouble to examine the validity of it yourself, which involves challenging and examining everything you believe or think you knew. Very few people are willing to do that.
I haven't really "rejected" anything you've been saying. Seriously, not at all. I just think that you haven't responded to the distinction that I've been making between these two types of "purpose". Also, I suppose we could ask ourselves if "purpose" and "meaning" refer to exactly the same thing. Perhaps they don't, but in the context that I'm speaking I am generally relating the two. I think I understand your evolutionary argument with respect to purpose and fully agree with it. I say that "I think" because, as you said much earlier, I cannot place myself directly in your mind in order to know that what I think I understand is exactly what you intended, but I do believe that I do understand and agree with what you've been saying on that point. However, presupposing some future "purpose", as if to say that evolution has already been predesigned and we are only to discover what our future destiny as a species is to be, well do not believe that we have reason or evidence to support such an assertion.
Eaglerising
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Eaglerising »

I realize what you are asking. You’re wanting or looking for someone to confirm your perception of this topic. Or, you are seeking further knowledge, comprehension or understanding of it. What you are not seeing is that I have answered you several different ways.
One, I have pointed out the possibility that your perception about this subject is inaccurate.
Two, I am not interested in proving or disproving anything.
Three, I can NOT give you what you want, only you can. I pointed out how and why.
Pelegrin_1
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Pelegrin_1 »

Eaglerising wrote:I realize what you are asking. You’re wanting or looking for someone to confirm your perception of this topic. Or, you are seeking further knowledge, comprehension or understanding of it. What you are not seeing is that I have answered you several different ways.
One, I have pointed out the possibility that your perception about this subject is inaccurate.
Two, I am not interested in proving or disproving anything.
Three, I can NOT give you what you want, only you can. I pointed out how and why.
I got the second two, but I didn't get number one. Perhaps it was by fault of my comprehension of your answer given to number one, or perhaps it was that you weren't clear about your answer given for number one. But either way, I didn't get it.

I think also that if you attempted #1, then at least you had some degree of interest relating to #2. If your interest is in fact limited with respect to #2, then that too could be the reason why I didn't get your #1, because you perhaps really didn't put enough effort into it in order to make clear your reasoning for #1. And to #3, perhaps you, in this discussion, are the only one who CAN give me what I want. Because what I want is an argument that can either 1) directly confront and give reasoned dispute of the opinion I stated, or 2) show agreement with that opinion, or 3) simply say you have no argument to either agree or disagree with that opinion. At the moment, I "feel" as though 1st may have been attempted, but I only identify the 3rd as what resulted.

So again, no, I'm not looking for confirmation. In fact, well reasoned argument to dispute my opinion is much much more worthwhile. Therefore, I suppose it could be said that I'm seeking argument to advance my own thinking, either by adding to my current position or to have reason to change that position in favor of another.
Eaglerising
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Eaglerising »

Pelegrin-1: Your last comment is what I stated in number one: "Therefore, I suppose it could be said that I'm seeking argument to advance my own thinking, either by adding to my current position or to have reason to change that position in favor of another. AGREEMENT substantiates your position, view, or perception."

Knowledge plus knowledge doesn’t equal more understanding. If thet knowledge is in agreement, it merely substantiates it. Nothing has been added. If the knowledge opposes or conflicts with your knowledge, it is rejected. Nothing has been added. It takes something OTHER than knowledge to alter your view, perception or comprehension of something. Seeing the forest requires being outside the trees.

Your statement: "You are the only one who CAN give me what I want. Because what I want is an argument that can either 1) directly confront and give reasoned dispute of the opinion I stated, or 2) show agreement with that opinion, or 3) simply say you have no argument to either agree or disagree with that opinion."

The dichotomy process you are using cannot obtain what you want or desire. Dichotomy is binary – yes/no, right/wrong, 1/0. Dichotomy also causes two opposing statements to be equally true and false. An example of that can be seen with those who support and oppose abortion. Both sides will never agree.

To understand the real issue requires a tricotomy view. A trichotomy view is multileveled, holistic and free of conflict. It’s similar, but different from those who support and oppose abortion. NO ONE, other than you can provide you with that view. And, when you develop it, you will see things entirely different.

An argument is a contest and creates conflict, whereas a discourse is an examination free of conflict. All parties in a discourse are on equal footing, seek understanding, and realize they don’t have all the pieces.
Pelegrin_1
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Re: What is the reason for Human existence?

Post by Pelegrin_1 »

Is it not possible that we can have a "discourse" on this topic, and that you could directly respond to my stated thought about a future or destined purpose for human existence? Or do you just feel that whatever reasoned expression you offer, I will simply respond with "argument" and not examine what you say in a holistically accepting way?
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