How Consciousness Solves the Problem of Free Will.

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Woodart
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Re: How Consciousness Solves the Problem of Free Will.

Post by Woodart »

Greta wrote:
Storms, volcanoes, asteroids etc ... perhaps that comparison does not quite work other than "pound for pound" :)
My point is that emotion gives credence to the notion of free will. An asteroid or star has immense physical power, but emotions transcend all physical forces. Determinists usually assert that all events are circumscribed by antecedent events. The forces of nature are determined by events that come before its current state. Physics is usually described as a deterministic system – cause and effect. However emotion can live outside of a deterministic system. Emotions defy quantum measurement.
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Sy Borg
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Re: How Consciousness Solves the Problem of Free Will.

Post by Sy Borg »

Woodart wrote:
Greta wrote:
Storms, volcanoes, asteroids etc ... perhaps that comparison does not quite work other than "pound for pound" :)
My point is that emotion gives credence to the notion of free will. An asteroid or star has immense physical power, but emotions transcend all physical forces. Determinists usually assert that all events are circumscribed by antecedent events. The forces of nature are determined by events that come before its current state. Physics is usually described as a deterministic system – cause and effect. However emotion can live outside of a deterministic system. Emotions defy quantum measurement.
I would agree that emotions (and micro-emotions) are what separates the conscious from the reflexive. However, they don't strike me as free. Rather, we appear to be just as controlled by our emotions as we are are by authority figures, or by the weather for that matter. If freedom does actually exist, it's very subtle as compared with the restrictions of our genetics, environment, society, conditioning and emotions.
Eaglerising
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Re: How Consciousness Solves the Problem of Free Will.

Post by Eaglerising »

Please help me see how emotion gives credence to the notion of free will.

Uniqueness has no competition, Emotion is a powerful energy, so is electricity, and magnetism. Their uniqueness of each energy makes it impossible to accurately state one energy is greater or lesser than other.

-- Updated March 22nd, 2017, 2:58 pm to add the following --

You can compare the same type of energy from two different sources. But, you cannot compare different energies from the same source. If you carefully examine emotion, electricity, or any other energy, you will see that they all have the same source. And every energy from that source is unique. Uniqueness has no competition, competition exists where there is sameness.
Woodart
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Joined: March 3rd, 2017, 1:49 pm

Re: How Consciousness Solves the Problem of Free Will.

Post by Woodart »

Greta wrote:
If freedom does actually exist, it's very subtle as compared with the restrictions of our genetics, environment, society, conditioning and emotions.

The problem I see in the free will vs determinism debate is that each camp try’s to disprove or discredit the other. I think this is a mistake. Both are at work in our lives. I acknowledge that much, maybe most, of what happens to me is determined by prior circumstance. Or to put it a better way – shaped. The nuances of emotion can inject an influence which is beyond the physical and sometimes the rational. Emotions can be a wildcard. To say we do not fully grasp emotions is an understatement. Emotions really are subtle.

Deterministic philosophy gives us principles to eventually connect everything. That which we do not understand or see a causal relationship; the philosophy extols us to have faith in the principles so that over time we may see the light. In many instances it is true that in time and with increased focus a connection is revealed; but not always. Does science always have an answer? No – it does not.

Another interesting way to look at determinism is to observe its proponents. Pure deterministic philosophers tend to zealous. They have seized a system of thinking that needs to be propounded and defended. It’s a religious crusade. Why? – Because it is the truth; it settles the question of free will; it provides a logic system you can hang your hat on. Let’s put aside for a moment the veracity of determinism. What does it say about its adherents? It says they like a script that provides resolution to how the universe is connected. Well, who wouldn’t?

Well here we are as human beings adrift on a pebble in the vastness of the universe. We are consumed with are insignificance and insecurity. We as thinkers are painfully aware we do not know very much and the more we learn – we discover there is more to know. The universe gets larger and deeper the more we look. Determinism comes along and gives us a ray of hope that we may have a little handle on things. I agree it is a great way to explain many, if not most things - or at least connections. Is this script a blueprint to the whole picture – is it scripture? I think not because we are still desperately insecure – an emotion.

Another way of looking at things is to ask a question which is a kind of joke. What is the oldest profession? The answer has always been – prostitute. Would it not be fair to say that before the prostitute there needed to be a person pointing a finger and saying – whore! Who was that finger pointer? It was a priest, shaman and/or person of wisdom and authority. In other words it was a philosopher. The philosopher/shaman framed how we look at the universe and ourselves. He/she chased the boogieman away and told us how to live. Well maybe free will is the boogieman. However I doubt determinism sees the whole picture.

Emotion as part of consciousness is more than the sum of its parts. Emotion is not energy in a physical sense; although it is connected to a physical body. Emotion is amorphous and can be at the same time specific. Emotion can be weak and strong at the same time. A good analogy would be a quantum particle – it has more than one state. Emotion is a driver and spark to our predilections. It is both a guide to freedom and a chain to imprisonment.

In my view determinism and free will work together to give us a full picture. The focus of that picture is many times refined by free will and at other times determinism set the camera lens. I don’t think we should throw the baby out with bath water.

-- Updated March 28th, 2017, 8:30 pm to add the following --

Emotion is a part of consciousness, a large part. Well, where does it come from? Obviously it is connected to our biology. So does biology tell the whole story? I do not think so. A much harder question is to ask – what is emotion and can we describe it? I think we can describe parts of it – characteristics, intentions, features and attributes. Emotions tend to be mixed up with each other; and to make matters worse they get mixed up with other people’s emotions.

There has been a lot of work lately with MRI, EEG and other electronic hardware to track emotions. It has produced a wealth of information – good data. However the data is not always consistent and many times contradicting. Well, you say, we need better hardware. Perhaps, but I think better hardware will still leave gaps in our understanding. Why? – Because understanding the mechanics of emotion does not tell the entire story. Emotions have qualities that go beyond physical attributes and dimension. Take for example projection – we project our emotions unto other “things” – trees, rocks, dogs. How about empathy or compassion? Where do these emotions come from, what triggers them? What about humor, it’s a funny thing. Strike that, it is not a laughing matter. Determinists may say they have an explanation for these things. Well, I would like to hear it?

Emotions are intertwined with another tricky entity – desire. Desire or volition is another aspect of consciousness. Well what is it? I know what some of my desires are; but what is it and where did it come from? Why do I have desires and what can I do about it? Join a church – philosophy club? Can I use the same electronic machines to measure my desire? Maybe, but I think it will be awhile before a machine can tell me why I want something or what I want next. I have not heard an adequate explanation from determinist on the subject of desire. If you have one – please share it. I hope it is more than one force acting upon another. Or some mathematical equation that makes us all dizzy.
It would be convenient to say we will get a handle on this eventually. And maybe we will in 1000 years or a million years. Or it might take 10 billion years. Can you imagine what human beings would be like in 10 billion years? I can’t, I am just hoping we can make it through the next 4 years. And unfortunately for us this is not a joke, or maybe it is and the joke is on us all.
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