How Consciousness Solves the Problem of Free Will.

[Toadny]

The Problem of Free Will is the problem of reconciling our ability to choose our actions with the apparent determinism of a world of cause and effect.

I propose that the solution to this problem is that consciousness allows a new kind of cause to create new kinds of effects, overcoming the constraints of determinism.

The universe is said to be deterministic because if we know the location and momentum of every atom in the universe, we also know their past and future values for any given time, because these can be calculated from the laws of classical mechanics. So it's already determined what is going to happen, and we can't really be choosing freely when we think we are.

Consciousness depends on the location and momentum of the atoms in the brain. In the nervous systems of the simplest conscious animals, whichever those are, and in the nervous system of a fetus when it first develops consciousness, the location and momentum of the atoms is still determined by classical mechanics.

However something novel is being done with the atoms in all living things. There's a new kind of force at work, as biology causes the atoms to form repeating patterns and go through repeating processes, the processes which cause the organism to survive as a discrete organism, to reproduce, digest, excrete, maintain its metabolism, all the activities we use to identify life. This force that causes organisms to develop, grow, survive, reproduce, is what I mean by "will". I am going to say all living organisms have a form of will, but in simple animals it is a mechanical, senseless, blind will.

But highly developed conscious organisms like us can direct the location and momentum of the atoms in our brains. That's what we do when we think and reason, and when we make active use of our memories. A conscious experience is correlated with a succession of brain states, with the atoms located and moving in particular ways, and when we for example actively retrieve a particular memory, or reason our way through some ideas, then we are causing those atoms to behave in a different way to that which would be determined solely by classical mechanics.

That is how consciousness overcomes the constraints of determinism and gives us free will.

[Wuliheron]

You might find the theory of Quantum Darwinism interesting. Its the idea that whatever the hell is behind quantum mechanical indeterminacy is basically throwing shadows at everything like a drunk cartoonist or something. Anyway, these random "shadows" evolve into everything observable and evolution is the basic principle of the universe. Everything evolves including your stupid toaster and the known laws of physics themselves out of complete and utter chaos. Pretty cool theory and it has received its first experimental confirmation this year.

[Misty]

The Problem of Free Will is the problem of reconciling our ability to choose our actions with the apparent determinism of a world of cause and effect.

I propose that the solution to this problem is that consciousness allows a new kind of cause to create new kinds of effects, overcoming the constraints of determinism.

The universe is said to be deterministic because if we know the location and momentum of every atom in the universe, we also know their past and future values for any given time, because these can be calculated from the laws of classical mechanics. So it's already determined what is going to happen, and we can't really be choosing freely when we think we are.

Consciousness depends on the location and momentum of the atoms in the brain. In the nervous systems of the simplest conscious animals, whichever those are, and in the nervous system of a fetus when it first develops consciousness, the location and momentum of the atoms is still determined by classical mechanics.

However something novel is being done with the atoms in all living things. There's a new kind of force at work, as biology causes the atoms to form repeating patterns and go through repeating processes, the processes which cause the organism to survive as a discrete organism, to reproduce, digest, excrete, maintain its metabolism, all the activities we use to identify life. This force that causes organisms to develop, grow, survive, reproduce, is what I mean by "will". I am going to say all living organisms have a form of will, but in simple animals it is a mechanical, senseless, blind will.

But highly developed conscious organisms like us can direct the location and momentum of the atoms in our brains. That's what we do when we think and reason, and when we make active use of our memories. A conscious experience is correlated with a succession of brain states, with the atoms located and moving in particular ways, and when we for example actively retrieve a particular memory, or reason our way through some ideas, then we are causing those atoms to behave in a different way to that which would be determined solely by classical mechanics.

That is how consciousness overcomes the constraints of determinism and gives us free will.

What about humans who have damaged conscious, or no sense of conscious, or undeveloped conscious, or a sleeping conscious? What kind of "will" do they have?

[Toadny]

What about humans who have damaged conscious, or no sense of conscious, or undeveloped conscious, or a sleeping conscious? What kind of "will" do they have?

Damaged consciousness: depends on the nature and extent of the damage. I suppose you could see intoxication as an example of a type of damaged consciousness, and a person who is tripping heavily or very drunk may be unable to cause their brain to work in the way they want, so they have lost free will. And people with certain mental illnesses are the same.

No consciousness: no free will.

Undeveloped consciousness: like I said about the fetus, before it develops consciousness it has what I am calling "will", which all living things have, but it is not free will.

Sleeping consciousness: in dreams, I have very occasionally had some free will, once in a lovely dream where I could fly, I was able to shape and prolong the dream. That was my best dream ever. But in most of my dreams I feel no control, my mind is pushing the atoms around in my brain without any active input from my free will.

[Pastabake]

What do you really hope to gain from this idea? Why is it so important that your ideas and actions are not the result of prior causes?

[Toadny]

What do you really hope to gain from this idea? Why is it so important that your ideas and actions are not the result of prior causes?

I would like to gain world-wide recognition as the philosopher who solved the problem of free will, a Nobel Prize, wealth and lasting good health and fortune. Also I would like a lot more respect from people like you.

It's not actually that "important" to me that my ideas and actions are not the result of prior causes, I mean I don't think this breakthrough in understanding will change my life, apart from the Nobel Prize and the wealth of course.

Is it important to you that your ideas and actions are the result of prior causes?

[Pastabake]

Is it important to you that your ideas and actions are the result of prior causes?

Not really.

However I do think it's important to be able to understand why someone acts as they do and it seems that the idea of freewill makes any understanding fundamentally impossible.

I'm also more interested in why people have trouble with the idea that they are not the sole authors of their own actions.

I wish you luck on the Nobel Prize but I suspect that the Freewill problem isn't held in high enough esteem to warrant such a reward.

[Toadny]

However I do think it's important to be able to understand why someone acts as they do and it seems that the idea of freewill makes any understanding fundamentally impossible.

All the philosophers I have read on the topic say that it is difficult to explain how people act as they do without including the notion of free will.

I'm also more interested in why people have trouble with the idea that they are not the sole authors of their own actions.

Because in some cases we demonstrably are the sole authors of our actions. Look, I am the only person deciding which key to press: % $ £ * & %. Want to try to explain why I am not the sole author of those actions?

[Pastabake]

All the philosophers I have read on the topic say that it is difficult to explain how people act as they do without including the notion of free will.

Freewill isn't an explanation, it's just a blanket term for disguising a lack of adequate information to explain what's really going on.

Explanation is also not the same as understanding.

You can explain someone's actions up to a point, but if action is the result of 'freewill', and as it could therefore have been otherwise, no explanation is ever going to be adequate. We are never going to be able to explain or understand why one course rather than another was taken, reason is never going to be sufficient because at the point of taking the action it could have gone either way.

What freewill does is to make all such explanations post hoc rationalisations.

Because in some cases we demonstrably are the sole authors of our actions. Look, I am the only person deciding which key to press: % $ £ * & %. Want to try to explain why I am not the sole author of those actions?

Are we? What was so amazingly freewilled about some seemingly random key presses? Which, if previous freewill topics are anything to go by, were depressingly predictable.

As I stated earlier - "I'm also more interested in why people have trouble with the idea that they are not the sole authors of their own actions.". Which seems a relevant interest irrespective of the validity of the concept of freewill.

[Theophane]

That is how consciousness overcomes the constraints of determinism and gives us free will.

You can predict the movement/value of atoms based on the model of determinism, but you can't deterministically predict a person's thoughts or emotions, can you? Are my thoughts the result of synaptic firing patterns in my brain or do my thoughts dictate how/when/where my synapses will fire? Can you reduce human consciousness to neurobiological processes? Consciousness is either generated inside the brain or received by the brain from elsewhere.

[Misty]

(Nested quote removed.)


Damaged consciousness: depends on the nature and extent of the damage. I suppose you could see intoxication as an example of a type of damaged consciousness, and a person who is tripping heavily or very drunk may be unable to cause their brain to work in the way they want, so they have lost free will. And people with certain mental illnesses are the same.

No consciousness: no free will.

Undeveloped consciousness: like I said about the fetus, before it develops consciousness it has what I am calling "will", which all living things have, but it is not free will.

Sleeping consciousness: in dreams, I have very occasionally had some free will, once in a lovely dream where I could fly, I was able to shape and prolong the dream. That was my best dream ever. But in most of my dreams I feel no control, my mind is pushing the atoms around in my brain without any active input from my free will.

If a human is in any position of lack of consciousness, yet are alive, proves no free will. Who would choose that? Did you choose your birth and all that came with it? Will you likely choose your demise and all it will entail? What I meant about sleeping consciousness is coma. You only think you control dreams, but you cannot. No one knows how dreams work. All that goes on within the brain while one is asleep or awake under whatever circumstance is still predetermined by the health of and all information afforded each individual. Free to act within determinism is not free will, but a will that has been constructed from input, and within that input are choices. Will that is "free" would not make choices that would collide with other free wills. A will that is free is not available to humans or animals as they both act and react to their knowledge and strength and circumstances from a brain that holds all it has experienced. Babies cry when their brain signals they need nourishment not because they choose to be hungry. All human decisions are based on fight or flight within what each individual has learned is good or evil for their welfare.

[Toadny]

Freewill isn't an explanation, it's just a blanket term for disguising a lack of adequate information to explain what's really going on.

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Explanation is also not the same as understanding.

But if you can explain something you understand it. What's the point of this remark?

We are never going to be able to explain or understand why one course rather than another was taken, reason is never going to be sufficient because at the point of taking the action it could have gone either way.

That's just the nature of free will.

Are we? What was so amazingly freewilled about some seemingly random key presses?

I chose which keys to press, and nobody else was involved, so I was the sole author of my actions, which you said was impossible.

Which, if previous freewill topics are anything to go by, were depressingly predictable.

Don't be ridiculous man. Can you predict now what I will do to demonstrate free will in my next post? You have no idea!

-- Updated June 1st, 2013, 8:14 am to add the following --

Are my thoughts the result of synaptic firing patterns in my brain or do my thoughts dictate how/when/where my synapses will fire?

Your free will can (it doesn't always) dictate the firing patterns, from which the thoughts result. You can decide what to think about.

Consciousness is either generated inside the brain or received by the brain from elsewhere.

It's generated by the brain.

-- Updated June 1st, 2013, 8:16 am to add the following --

All human decisions are based on fight or flight within what each individual has learned is good or evil for their welfare.

No they aren't. My decision to type these symbols % SSS]]]BBB is not based on anything like fight or flight, the decision has nothing to do with my welfare.

[Misty]

(Nested quote removed.)


No they aren't. My decision to type these symbols % SSS]]]BBB is not based on anything like fight or flight, the decision has nothing to do with my welfare.

You are arguing your point (fight) and your ego wants to be right.(your welfare)

[Toadny]

You are arguing your point (fight) and your ego wants to be right.(your welfare)

That doesn't explain why I chose those symbols and not others. It doesn't explain why I choose now to type + and now $.

[Misty]

(Nested quote removed.)


That doesn't explain why I chose those symbols and not others. It doesn't explain why I choose now to type + and now $.

You have chosen choices within what you have learned which is ones will. Free to act within what your mind has absorbed but not free will which is beyond any single minds abilities. Free will would not have challenge but human will is always challenged.