Do men hate themselves?

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OntheHorizon
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by OntheHorizon »

Well done!
There is no evil and the only reason we ever gave in to believing in it was because we are good.
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Khanya solvitt
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Khanya solvitt »

Ha! Ha! Love it, love it, love it BraveRobin!!

However, I do not think men hate themselves but they are petrified of their frailty/fragility!! In this modern age of science they have become redundant!!! Why? If a selective disease (maybe Men Flu) came and wiped all men out of existence it would not really matter so long as we have a sperm bank or two! If the average ejaculation can produce roughly 49 million sperm, and each sperm was used to make a baby then we do not need men! We could then bring up all new male babies as a "Mother's boy" then I am sure the world would become a kinder place!

If, by the same token, a similar disease (Women Flu) came and wiped out all women then that would be the end of humanity!! So you see how important women are for without them you would not be alive!!

In case you are wondering, no I am not a man hater! Even have one of my own! He is, however, due for retirement soon and so his (financially) productive years as now over, and as I do not want him underfoot at home maybe now is the time to practice the praying mantis theory!! You guys may think that you are tough - but our digestive juices can cope!!!

May God Bless and Save All Men A(wo)men
Mayanka
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Mayanka »

Um, I'm sorry, am I supposed to be offended?
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Discards
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Discards »

Are you?
To be is to do. To do is to be. Do-be, do-be, do-be, do. - the philosophical importance of Scoobie-do is to Scoobie-be!
Mayanka
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Mayanka »

BraveRobin, I should mention I don't get sarcasm.
OntheHorizon wrote: Well done!
I don't get it. There were some good quotes there, which could be food for thought. Even though I do not get how it could be extended to the question of hatred towards self, I'll be willing to consider it, but you either ways didn't respond to any of it So what's well done exactly? Well done as a retaliation? Because it doesn't seem like one to me. I actually read everything with great interest. And I do stand by my topic, so if you are against that, please participate in it and enlighten me.
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Discards
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Discards »

BraveRobin wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

No, this was just a copy of what your post because it was very neat.

-- Updated August 28th, 2013, 4:32 am to add the following --

Think you, Khanya Solvitt and OntheHorizon. Discards, what are you asking me? Sorry I don't understand.
Oh! No. I was actually interested if Mayanka did find your post offensive. The question posed was "am I supposed to be offended". So, I was interested if that person was.

No. I found your selection of quotes enjoyable reading. Do men hate themselves? Probably some do. It's more probable that men hate women and women hate men. Or it's likely that men hate men and women hate women. It depends on te person. I doubt you can categorically say that men hate themselves. But on some deep existential level I think everyone enjoys some level of self loathing. On the contrary, I think we can agree that some people in fact really like themselves. And that can be interpreted as pure conceit. But, is tht wrong? Have we been trained to hate our selves? Jesus of Nazareth, a great spiritual leader some would say, endorsed "loving oneself". So, ...
To be is to do. To do is to be. Do-be, do-be, do-be, do. - the philosophical importance of Scoobie-do is to Scoobie-be!
Mayanka
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Mayanka »

No, no not at all, I misunderstood. I found your post pretty interssting.
Leonodas
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Leonodas »

I find it interesting that this thread received nothing but praise, but then the other one received practically nothing but criticism. Very interesting indeed.
Mayanka
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Mayanka »

Leonodas wrote: I find it interesting that this thread received nothing but praise, but then the other one received practically nothing but criticism. Very interesting indeed.
Very nice observation you stated there. Let's philosophise.

The men getting outraged at women being called inferior, and finding the question of men having low self-esteem acceptable, even amusing, I guess, from the first two replies. Also worth noting is that not many arguments have come up for or against the question of men hating themselves.

Maybe it is some deep sense of chivalry, where men feel the need to defend women before they defend themselves. Because not doing so would reinstate the fact that women are inferior, which would go to mean that men do dominate, which wouldn't reflect too well on the men.

But see, not many care as much about themselves being called inferior. Is it because it is very obvious they aren't, or very obvious that they are I wonder.
Leonodas
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Leonodas »

^ This is true, and ironically so. By men feeling that they must step up to defend women before themselves implies that women need defending at all, even if the intent is the opposite. If we are truly honest about gender equality, then the concept of male chivalry should be non-existent because women are perfectly capable of handling themselves in any given situation.

People like to have their cake and eat it too, but sadly such a thing cannot, or rather should not be possible if we want to be intellectually honest.
Logic_ill
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Logic_ill »

I don't think women or men are always capable of handling each and every situation. I think in many situations, especially those that involve strength, men usually have the upper hand. It doesn't mean that women are not strong enough for some situations, but not all, as some men aren't, but women are less. Either way, women can come up with ingenious ways to cope with their lesser strength and many other things, just as men have.

I love chivalry because I consider myself chivalrous and I am female. I think we should honor, respect and protect one another, regardless of our gender.

I think these gender discussions are good, in order to get a sense of each gender's general experience and for the sake of awareness, but this will vary according to gender, social class, level of education, age, generation, country or culture, etc...

On the other hand, it may promote unnecessary divisions between us. We must remember that we have brothers, sisters, daughters, sons, fathers, and mothers and that we care for all of them, and their well-being. We are all members of the same society and it would be ludicrous to fiercely compete with one another. If we begin to do so, we will make matters worse because then everyone will start pulling their own way, which is not beneficial for a cooperative society.

We have lived and are somewhat still living in a patriarchal society and we need to level the playing field to seek equal treatment and opportunities, but not to make the other fail. We should seek that equality to create a more prosperous intelligent society.

The problem with attaining the abovementioned is that there is a class struggle, so we have been born to compete to be able to have more and enjoy general esteem. So, not only is more women in the workplace mean more competition for men in general, but more competition for the lower and middle classes because it is the upper-classes who have more access to education, connections, resources, and their tendency is to marry one another ;) People with money usually marry people with money, making it more difficult for the poor or middle classes to access the money, although not impossible.

Anyhow, this creates a problem for all of us, whether we believe it or not, because then crime goes up in order to get the money, there will be more poor non working people living on welfare, people who are left with nothing to contribute to society usually end up doing destructive things, etc...
Percepeg
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Percepeg »

Mayanka wrote:The men getting outraged at women being called inferior, and finding the question of men having low self-esteem acceptable, even amusing, I guess, from the first two replies. Also worth noting is that not many arguments have come up for or against the question of men hating themselves. Maybe it is some deep sense of chivalry, where men feel the need to defend women before they defend themselves. Because not doing so would reinstate the fact that women are inferior, which would go to mean that men do dominate, which wouldn't reflect too well on the men. But see, not many care as much about themselves being called inferior. Is it because it is very obvious they aren't, or very obvious that they are I wonder.
I think this fact shows that men are more self confident and have a healthy sense of self worth. Women are mostly on the defensive.

No doubt this difference in the genders has come about because for hundreds of years the idea of the inferiority of women both physically and intellectually was accepted and never questioned by either sex.

Things have changed a lot over the past 50 years across a large part of the world but laws can only do so much. Until we can establish a society where men and women can regard each other as allies and friends, rather than opponents, I think we will not have realised the dream.

I have had the pleasure of counting many strong confident people within my circle of friends. Their kindness, humour, common sense and intelligence fill my memories of them. Of course I noticed their gender too (even fancied some of them :) ) but they were all PEOPLE first.

Oh, in case it makes a difference, I’m female.
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The Allcomist
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by The Allcomist »

Men, or atleast the men that I know and talk to dont hate themselves, and really should'nt. Men and women are naturally supposed to compliment each other. What men lack women bring to the table, and vice versa. Its quite unfair to say men are stupid, just as unfair to say women are weak. If the world was run by women I feel that it would be the same with different problems men would be called upon to balance out. Its all about our genetic chemical make up. However there are exceptions in every circumstance I've met men who are O.C.D. neat freaks and great organizers who couldn't lift a pound, conversely I've met women who are filthy and much stronger than the average male. So I believe men don't hate themselves we just don't have a problem saying we do as you may be able to tell by the other responses in the forum.
Leonodas
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Leonodas »

There was a Medieval proverb going something like this pertaining to male-female relations in society: "Same in importance, different in function."

Same goes with the yin and the yang, which has been unnecessarily twisted to fit a more patriarchal society. Men are the white, and women are the black part, having no Western interpretations of the colours of course (ie white is good, black is bad, etc is not relevant here). Basically, without one, there is no other. There must be balance.

I do believe science has discovered that the brain is different depending on whether the person is a male or female. That is, implying that male and females functions are different (obviously) and that each plays a different biological role.

Aside from brain differences, what difference is there really between a man and a woman? Genitalia? Breasts? The fact that someone can easily get a sex change operation today breaks the preconceived notions of gender, although I think few notice or care about these implications. It all comes down to hormones. I guarantee that if you gave a woman testosterone by the bucketload, she wouldn't appear much different than a man. Now I don't know much about artificial injections or hormones or anything like that, but I daresay that she would start spouting the muscles, hair, and deep voice of a man!

There was also another study which stated that more effeminate men had brains which were closer to that of a female brain than a male one. If this holds up, then maybe this is the reason for people being gay -- their brains are hardwired in the other direction! Which also makes sense in the context of the stereotypes regarding gay men being more effeminate and lesbian women being more...butch. Now of course this isn't always true, but you get the point.

It all comes down to biology in the end. I suspect that one day, we will be able to truly understand the differences that certain hormones make in sexual development. I also suspect that in time, our society's notions of gender will be far removed from the traditional perception today.

I contend that aliens will play a part in that, since we'll have to start looking at each other as the same species instead of different gender/race etc. But that's just conjecture at this point.
Mayanka
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Re: Do men hate themselves?

Post by Mayanka »

I don't have much to add to the argument, because I mostly agree with whatever's been said. I'd just like to add these very interesting instances i read about in some book. They refer to 'gender', and how it really is a social construct, and how it really doesn't have to be the way it is.

Usually in hunter-gatherer societies, man is the hunter and woman the gatherer, because she is required to stay closer to the house to take care of her children. ANd also it is believed that hunting would hamper women's fertility. But the Agta Negrito tribe functions very differently. Here the women themselves hunt, and at the same time take care of their children. They take the role of men, and there is no question of it affecting their fertility (in other words their femininity).

In the Tahiti community, there is no word for "gender", or separate pronouns for "he" and "she". They are a peaceful community, and there are plenty of resources where they live. So no one (men) has to play the role of the defender, provider, or protector. Men do not feel the need to assert their masculinity or superiority here, and everyone is considered equal.

Then there are some communities in North America, Africa where there is a third and fourth gender. A man-woman (A woman who takes on the characteristics of a man) and a woman-man (a feminine man). THese two genders are very easily accepted, and also they do not have any allusion to the sexuality of these individuals. A woman-man may just as well be heterosexual. These communities are subject to respect because they, unlike many parts of our sad societies, have given consideration to those who may not be very comfortable with the roles society inflicts on them because of their biological sex.

So there you go Leonodas. It if in fact possible without aliens! Who'd have thought.
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