Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
Post Reply
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

It's well known that math has many uses as an aid to science. Some examples are calculus, differential equations, statistics and even math itself if you count math as a science.

What do you think of recreational math? Is it worthwhile? A noted mathematician named Leonhard Euler explored the Konisberg bridges puzzle. The solution led to graph theory and topology, an important branch of math. Euler and Fermat also explored magic squares (which are the basis of Sudoku puzzles which populate supermarket shelves).

Another noted mathematician, GH Hardy, said he hoped that math will never be useful (although parts of it are quite useful so I wonder if he was misquoted).

What are your thoughts on this?

PhilX
User avatar
TheBob
New Trial Member
Posts: 4
Joined: March 27th, 2014, 8:15 pm

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by TheBob »

Mathematics is a lot like philosophy. Whenever I talk about it with a group of uninitiated friends, I get blank stares and someone quickly changes the subject. But on a serious level, mathematics is commonly known for its use in everyday life such as addition in paying bills, much like how philosophy is known for applied ethical theories, such as altruism. But both have deep theoretical sides that are hard to realize in everyday situations but are (or rather, I consider) very good personal development tools. When I debate the limits of reason, and the philosophy of linguistic history, it is hard to justify in everyday practical terms, but it is beneficial to my well-being in many other important (to me) ways. Whether or not something is worthwhile is very much a subjective value call, although there is evidence that mathematics can improve your cognitive abilities (although I'm inclined to think any activity other than passive entertainment can improve your mind). Engaging in even simple arithmetic for personal pleasure is a good confidence builder on its own. You have a problem, then you solve it. When you are facing problems in life that seem insurmountable, having a problem you can solve and knowing you can solve it can perhaps give you the confidence for harder ones in other situations.
User avatar
The Mind of MH
Posts: 57
Joined: March 28th, 2014, 12:29 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by The Mind of MH »

If by useful you mean having some measurable impact on the betterment of society, I would argue that no, math does not have to be useful to be worthwhile. If math is considered a type of language to express a unique type of meme, then even the math that is useless can still have meaning, as it serves to transfer ideas from one person to another or describe an individuals observations to themselves.

-TMOMH
Anthony Edgar
Posts: 150
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Paula Haigh
Location: Forster NSW Australia

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by Anthony Edgar »

I think usefulness is an good indicator of truth. If any mathematical or scientific theory is false, it ain't gunna be no use coz it don't work.
"There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe in them." - George Orwell
gimal
Posts: 54
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 5:31 am

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by gimal »

Mathematics is just a puzzle game its usefulness is just by pure chance read.
MATHEMATICS ENDS IN MEANINGLESSNESS
gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com/wp-conten ... MATICS.pdf
(Mathematics will become to be seen as just an artificial man made game an elaborate puzzle game used to exercise the left hemisphere of the brain-with some lucky/fluky applications to the real world. A puzzle game that is made to be consistent with certain rules that are made to make mathematics consistent – and when an inconsistency is found new ad hoc rules-like the axiom of separation- are made to ban the problem and make mathematics consistent again Mathematics will become to be seen as just an artificial man made game an elaborate puzzle game)
User avatar
TSBU
Posts: 151
Joined: August 17th, 2016, 5:32 pm

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by TSBU »

What is the difference between useful and worthwhile?
Dolphin42
Posts: 886
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 8:05 am
Location: The Evening Star

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Not much difference. But if there is one, I'd say that "worthwhile" is slightly more of a value judgement than "useful". Saying that a tool or activity is useful simply states, as a matter of fact, that it facilitates the achievement of a pre-existing goal. Saying that an activity is worthwhile often seems to be a judgement of its innate merits.
User avatar
The Dark Wanderer
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: October 21st, 2016, 6:57 pm

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by The Dark Wanderer »

If something does not have any practical or leisurely application, then I see no point in pursuing it.
User avatar
Frewah
Posts: 45
Joined: September 30th, 2018, 3:30 pm

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by Frewah »

Math can be recreationsl for sure. Euler managed to show that 26 is the only number squeezed between a square and a cube. Five squared is 25 and three cubed is 27. Finding the proof is recreational. There’s even an entry in wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreat ... athematics

Many people find sudoku recreational.
jlaugh
Posts: 14
Joined: September 19th, 2018, 3:44 am

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by jlaugh »

Addition, subtraction, and other similar operations do not represent the crux of mathematical inquiry or knowledge. They are arithmetic processes, and arithmetic processes are not the essence of mathematics, but just one small part. So, while we say that we use addition, subtraction, etc. on a daily basis, we only mean that we use arithmetic consistently, not mathematics.

Therefore, it is essential to differentiate between mathematics and arithmetic. Mathematics is more like a language; it also involves much intuition and a very strong ability to analyze, synthesize, and extrapolate. Serious mathematics is much like great literature. Their usefulness cannot be defined. They enrich the human experience in myriad ways, and different people draw different things from mathematics and literature. In this sense, mathematics is certainly useful (it enriches the lives of those who practice it seriously). Arithmetic, on the other hand, is ubiquitous and provides more tangible outcomes.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by Eduk »

No. Math does not have to be useful to be worthwhile.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Kevin Levites
New Trial Member
Posts: 15
Joined: April 25th, 2019, 11:25 am

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by Kevin Levites »

Anthony Edgar wrote: October 9th, 2016, 5:50 am I think usefulness is an good indicator of truth. If any mathematical or scientific theory is false, it ain't gunna be no use coz it don't work.
I must disagree with you here.

Just because a kind of math may not be useful now doesn't mean that it won't be useful in the future, or give someone a leg up on the competition when new things are discovered.

As an example, consider one of the sexiest, most beautiful woman who ever lived....the silver screen actress Hedy LaMarre.

She was the first actress to depict the female orgasm in a non-pornographic film, she acted alongside the greatest film stars of that era, and was loved by millions.

Yet--as her hobby--she was a kind of electronics Leonardo da Vinci who formulated the theoretical underpinnings of Bluetooth and cellphone radio transmissions.

As another example, consider that the Nazis were executing Operation Wolfpack in the Atlantic, where their submarines were using a kind of radio-controlled torpedo to attack boats that were bringing supplies to Britain.

LaMarre invented a kind of jamming device--based on the player piano--that would have disabled these torpedos.

Her device was impractical at the time, but was used in it's original form 20 years later during the naval blockade of Cuba during the Cuban missle crisis. This was a good thing, as the Soviets had torpedos armed with nuclear warheads.

So, my point is that many of LaMarre's mathematics and inventions weren't useful at the time, but became useful much later when the technology advanced to a certian level.

I think it speaks to LaMarre's genius that she was several decades ahead of her time, and she had--get this--little or no formal college education in electronics or mathematics.

It makes me wonder how much genius has been stifled and smothered--snuffed out, if you will--by experts ignoring people outside their fields, who might have provided a fresh insight into problems that "everyone knew" were unsolvable.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by Steve3007 »

I just want to say, that is a very interesting revelation about Hedy LaMarre. I wasn't aware of it. I only really knew of her existence via the reference to her in the film Blazing Saddles.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Does math have to be useful to be worthwhile?

Post by Steve3007 »

On the central point of the topic: It depends what you mean by "useful". That word could be defined such that maths is, by definition, useful if anyone subjectively considers it to be worthwhile. The pleasure of a single mathematician could be seen as a form of utility.

But a more common, narrower definition of the usefulness of mathematics is that it can be applied to predictions of our future physical sensations. In that case, as has already been said, we can never know when a piece of mathematics might turn out to be useful in the future. Since to be valid any piece of mathematics must be logically consistent with the rest of mathematics, we might say that if the physically perceived universe is itself logically consistent (as it so far seems to be) then any valid piece of mathematics will inevitably turn out to be useful at some point in the future. Maybe?
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021