Does time move?

[Misty]

(Nested quote removed.)


What would you call that which is between sun up and sun down, and sun down to sun up? Humans did not create days or seasons. Humans did not create any of those spaces, nor it's passing.

We perceive change within the present moment, even though the present moment itself, does not change. It is always now. Memory of those perceived change, is what we call time. Time is a measurement, taken from the present moment (back or forward) to assist our memory, which is essential for survival. Our ancestors need to remember where the food was, where water was and where the cave was. Humans do not create perceptions, but we do remember them. Without memory, all there would ever be, is what is here now, in the present moment.

The present moment of yesterday is not the same present moment of today. The memory assists humans to remember moments of the past and dream/anticipate future moments. Each moment of time is a present moment that will pass into a past moment. Yes, memory is the servant of the human and animals. Memory dies with each person so the written word, descendants, fossils, and all the universe becomes memory. So, the entire universe is a source of memory/moments of 'time.'

-- Updated Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:56 pm to add the following --

Think about it. What would we use to measure the movement of time? Time itself? I think that time is preoccupied.

If you don't use time, what then? What would qualify to measure the movement of time?

The rest of this is filler words.

PhilX

I just read your post in a different light. Time is not any one thing. Time is what happens. So what measures 'what happens' is whatever is happening. Time/what happens is self evident. Time is not separate from 'what happens' because time, is 'what happens.' Time is the succession of events. I was reading about time in the bible and it kept saying' process of time' so the process is what is happening. Events are the measure of time. Time is the unfolding of all things happening. One measures time past by the memory of what happened. Does time move? Yes, constantly!!

[Obvious Leo]

events are the measure of time.

Well said Misty. One could equally say that time is a measure of events and the meaning of your succinct phrase would be unaltered. In my opinion to attempt to differentiate between events and the time we use to measure them is gratuitous sophistry which merely serves to obfuscate the simple. As Einstein was fond of saying: If you can't explain something simply it means you don't understand it well enough. However to find complications where no complications exists is a common human foible. I see nothing wrong with simply accepting time for what it appears to be, a sequence of moments within which the events of the universe occur. Fortunately this interpretation is the best fit for the second law of thermodynamics which clearly indicates that the arrow of time is uni-directional. Therefore that the epistemic models of physics are time invariant is clear evidence that these models are not models of the real universe.

. Humans do not create perceptions

This statement is false and no psychologist or neuroscientist would say otherwise.

Regards Leo

[EMTe]

Posts downgraded to nicknames.

See Scotty what I try to put into your and your companions self-emptied heads for years?

[Present awareness]

Humans don't create perceptions, we simply perceive them. We do not create the light bouncing off our eyeballs, we simply "see" it.

Before leaving this topic about moving time, I will try to summarize my view on the subject

1. It is the present moment everywhere in the universe at the same time.

2. Space is what separates my present moment from yours, not time.

3. Everything in the universe is in constant motion, but since it is the present moment everywhere, no matter where things move to, they do not leave the present moment, they simply move around within the present moment.

4. Perceived changes in position or appearance, give the illusion of time passing, but all that is happening are things changing within the now. Now it is dark, now it is light. Dark and light happen, but only in the now.

5. Humans have the ability to think abstractly and so are not confined to the now. We may think about yesterday or dream about tomorrow, totally unaware of what is happening now. This is how many accidents happen. Although we can mentally remove ourselves from the present moment, we cannot do so physically, for the present moment is the only moment in which we will ever find ourselves alive.

[Obvious Leo]

Humans don't create perceptions, we simply perceive them.

Disproven by the sciences I mentioned. We see the light but we construct the image that the light represents. Also it doesn't bounce off our eyeballs, it is absorbed by neuronal cells in the retina.

1. It is the present moment everywhere in the universe at the same time.

Disproven by General Relativity through the principle of general covariance.

2. Space is what separates my present moment from yours, not time.

Disproven by Michelson-Morley as well as General Relativity

3. Everything in the universe is in constant motion, but since it is the present moment everywhere, no matter where things move to, they do not leave the present moment, they simply move around within the present moment.

Parmenidean hogwash.

Regards Leo

[Student_of_truth]

It is my understanding that time and space are one and the same. It is impossible to move through space without also moving through time. On the flip side it is also impossible for anything we have observed to be completely still, or in other words to reach absolute 0 degrees Kelvin. If a car goes down a one mile road at 60 miles per hour, it must also go one minute through time.

[Obvious Leo]

I've got a better car than that. Mine can go through a minute of time without moving out of my driveway and it only takes it a minute to do so.

Regards Leo

[Present awareness]

A theory is a theory Leo, not a fact. You may choose to believe in whatever theory you wish. The theory of relativity may be popular right now, but popularity does not prove correctness. There are many theories to choose from, and naturally, we feel the ones that we choose are the correct ones, but the truth is, no one "really" knows.

[Misty]

Humans don't create perceptions, we simply perceive them. We do not create the light bouncing off our eyeballs, we simply "see" it.

Before leaving this topic about moving time, I will try to summarize my view on the subject

1. It is the present moment everywhere in the universe at the same time.

2. Space is what separates my present moment from yours, not time.

3. Everything in the universe is in constant motion, but since it is the present moment everywhere, no matter where things move to, they do not leave the present moment, they simply move around within the present moment.

4. Perceived changes in position or appearance, give the illusion of time passing, but all that is happening are things changing within the now. Now it is dark, now it is light. Dark and light happen, but only in the now.

5. Humans have the ability to think abstractly and so are not confined to the now. We may think about yesterday or dream about tomorrow, totally unaware of what is happening now. This is how many accidents happen. Although we can mentally remove ourselves from the present moment, we cannot do so physically, for the present moment is the only moment in which we will ever find ourselves alive.

"Present moment" is not a single stagnant moment where all movement takes place within that single frame. "Present moments" are events constantly unfolding creating time, the past, present and future. Your 'present moment' and my 'present moment' are separated by experience of event. If we are experiencing an event at the same time our memories will have similarities. How long is a moment? A moment is a fraction of an event. Events are comprised of millions of moments unfolding, constantly creating life as humans know it.

[Obvious Leo]

A theory is a theory Leo, not a fact. You may choose to believe in whatever theory you wish. The theory of relativity may be popular right now, but popularity does not prove correctness. There are many theories to choose from, and naturally, we feel the ones that we choose are the correct ones, but the truth is, no one "really" knows.

I may have been a little too dismissive of your earlier post. I totally agree with what you say here and you won't find anybody here more critical of the relativity models than I am. After all I never let an opportunity slip by to dismiss the spacetime paradigm as nonsense. Although we're both entitled to our own opinions neither of us is entitled to our own facts and it is in the interpretation of facts that our differences lie.

Your primary error of fact is in your understanding of the nature of human perception.

Humans don't create perceptions, we simply perceive them.

My brother-in-law is colourblind. Are you willing to insist that he sees the world the same way as I do or should I take the arrogant position of assuming that I'm seeing the real world and he isn't? All species perceive colours differently. Many perceive colours that we can't and we can perceive colours that they can't. If you want to make the case for human exceptionalism please provide evidence for it and then explain which of the humans amongst us are being granted the privilege of observing the "real" world.

Here's a curious fact about our legal system. Any cop will tell you that if one person witnesses an event his eye-witness testimony will carry some weight in our court system. However if ten people witness it they won't be able to use any of them because any defence lawyer will immediately be able to demonstrate that all ten of them saw something different.

Regards Leo

-- Updated June 13th, 2014, 4:57 pm to add the following --

A moment is a fraction of an event.

This is not a bad way of looking at it, which then prompts the question: What is the smallest fraction of an event that it is possible to measure? This immediately introduces the idea of motion. If a physical entity A is in position X at time P then it can't be in position Y at time P simultaneously, despite what Present Awareness, Quantum mechanics and Special Relativity might have to say on the matter. Nothing can be in two different places at the same time. Furthermore if A is in position X at time P then no other physical entity can be in position X at the same time.

I regard the above statement as a statement of the bloody obvious and have even named my philosophy after it because this is the philosophy of the quantum in a nutshell and it goes to the heart of the problem with physics. The smallest possible unit of physical reality occupies its own discreet moment in time. If we then try to locate this entity in a 3-dimensional space we must either deny it the ability to move or represent time P as a spatial co-ordinate orthogonal to the other three. This is what the relativity models try to do and it quite simply doesn't work. This is why they are incompatible with each other and both are incompatible with QM.

How do we resolve this hundred year old impasse? The answer lies in the problem of the observer, the most sorely misunderstood bloke in the history of physics and it all boils down to this, once again.

Humans don't create perceptions, we simply perceive them.

This statement is false, boys and girls. Humans do create perceptions and they also create the 3 dimensional space within which to locate them. Empty space is not real.

Regards Leo

[Present awareness]

Also it doesn't bounce off our eyeballs, it is absorbed by neuronal cells in the retina.

Think about it Leo, if light didn't bounce off your eyeballs, I wouldn't be able to see them, or determine their colour.

-- Updated June 13th, 2014, 8:27 pm to add the following --

Humans do create perceptions and they also create the 3 dimensional space within which to locate them. Empty space is not real.

If this is true, then why doesn't your brother in-law create colour?

-- Updated June 13th, 2014, 8:50 pm to add the following --

"Present moment" is not a single stagnant moment where all movement takes place within that single frame. "Present moments" are events constantly unfolding creating time, the past, present and future. Your 'present moment' and my 'present moment' are separated by experience of event. If we are experiencing an event at the same time our memories will have similarities. How long is a moment? A moment is a fraction of an event. Events are comprised of millions of moments unfolding, constantly creating life as humans know it.

Everything you say here is correct Misty, according to the concept of time.

Let's say you are on a road driving towards a mountain. You can see the mountain ahead, but it will take you an hour to reach it. Is it correct to say that the mountain is an hour in the future?

I recently drove through a time zone ( Mountain to Pacific) and lost a hour. Where did that hour go? Did I just travel back in time?

[Misty]

['Misty wrote'] "Present moment" is not a single stagnant moment where all movement takes place within that single frame. "Present moments" are events constantly unfolding creating time, the past, present and future. Your 'present moment' and my 'present moment' are separated by experience of event. If we are experiencing an event at the same time our memories will have similarities. How long is a moment? A moment is a fraction of an event. Events are comprised of millions of moments unfolding, constantly creating life as humans know it.

Everything you say here is correct Misty, according to the concept of time.

Let's say you are on a road driving towards a mountain. You can see the mountain ahead, but it will take you an hour to reach it. Is it correct to say that the mountain is an hour in the future?

I recently drove through a time zone ( Mountain to Pacific) and lost a hour. Where did that hour go? Did I just travel back in time?

No, you did not travel back in time, the time zone is in sync with sun up/sun down for each area of earth, repeated every 24 hrs. You adjust your wake/sleep cycle to the new time zone.

Time measures itself, because time is the event of sun up/sun down. Clocks were invented to coincide with the event of sun up/sun down and measured by what we call seconds, minutes, hours and fractions thereof. The hour to the mountain is clock measurement of the event of your driving to the mountain. If you walked, the event time would take you longer even though the mileage is the same.

[enegue]

Misty said:
A moment is a fraction of an event.

This is not a bad way of looking at it, which then prompts the question: What is the smallest fraction of an event that it is possible to measure? This immediately introduces the idea of motion. If a physical entity A is in position X at time P then it can't be in position Y at time P simultaneously, despite what Present Awareness, Quantum mechanics and Special Relativity might have to say on the matter. Nothing can be in two different places at the same time. Furthermore if A is in position X at time P then no other physical entity can be in position X at the same time.

That's right. Events are processes that progress from beginning to end, and TIME is the scale we use to enable us to make reference to STEPS/STAGES in that progress.

A MOMENT is simply a mark on the scale.

Cheers,
enegue

[Spiral Out]

Time is an abstract concept that cannot be observed, tested, manipulated or otherwise quantified in any way, shape or form.

Change is what "moves" and we have formed the concept of the passage of time not only on the observation and perception of change but primarily and more specifically based upon cyclical change and our capacity for the memory of previous states.

Minutes don't exist absent something to apply them to (change) as a measure any more than inches exist absent something to apply them to (dimension) as a measure.

[Jklint]

One can think of time in any number of ways. One would be as a digital process which gets translated into analog consequences.