Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
Post Reply
User avatar
Therammo
New Trial Member
Posts: 1
Joined: January 29th, 2015, 8:04 am

Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Therammo » January 29th, 2015, 8:05 am

If we live in a multiverse that indicates eternal inflation, does it mean we actually live over and over again the same life?

Do all matter and particles that makes ''me'' me, fall in the same chronological order which will indicate that I am indeed a product of eternal and infinite energy?

This frightens me, mostly because we are not able to control whether we actually want to exist or not. We are just a product of eternal inflation that always existed and will continue to exist for eternity, thus making us eternal beings.

Another issue I have is, if we live in multiverse where all possible outcomes are actually possible, then it means that there are infinite amount copies of me, and some copies are presidents, doctors, criminals etc.

Now, with that said, what are your opinion on , me living again after I die on this earth? Will I eventually be born again and live same life again, or will I cease to exist, because there are infinite number of ''me'' out there, so it wouldn't break any mathematic number?

Sorry if it was hard to understand or just bad grammar, english is not my main language.

Greetings

User avatar
Scott
Site Admin
Posts: 4197
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Diogenes the Cynic
Contact:

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Scott » February 2nd, 2015, 7:36 pm

Therammo wrote:Another issue I have is, if we live in multiverse where all possible outcomes are actually possible, then it means that there are infinite amount copies of me, and some copies are presidents, doctors, criminals etc.
If the so-called "copies" are not identical to you then they are not identical copies. You are not a doctor, therefore they are not you. The closest you-like human being in that verse-of-a-multiverse is not actually you.
Online Philosophy Club - Please tell me how to improve this website!

Check it out: Abortion - Not as diametrically divisive as often thought?

User avatar
Atreyu
Posts: 1737
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Atreyu » February 3rd, 2015, 2:20 am

Therammo wrote:If we live in a multiverse that indicates eternal inflation, does it mean we actually live over and over again the same life?
How do you understand "eternal inflation"? Are you referring to the so called "bang-crunch" model?
Therammo wrote:Do all matter and particles that makes ''me'' me, fall in the same chronological order which will indicate that I am indeed a product of eternal and infinite energy?
From this, it appears to me that indeed you are referring to the so called "bang-crunch" model. If so, I see no reason to think that any "new" Universe would be an exact, or even necessarily a rough, replica of the current one. It may even be possible that a "new", or rather the "next", Universe may even have some fundamentally different laws than this one. So I would not base any idea of eternal recurrence on such a model, and, in fact, the original idea had nothing whatsoever to do with any contemporary cosmological models.
Therammo wrote:This frightens me, mostly because we are not able to control whether we actually want to exist or not. We are just a product of eternal inflation that always existed and will continue to exist for eternity, thus making us eternal beings.
I can relate to this fear, but I see no reason to base it on the idea of eternal recurrence. Whether this theory is true or not, we cannot control whether we exist or not, nor can we control how or when we die, nor do we even know our ultimate fate in the least. And this latter part is what I would think would scare people, not the general idea of just existing whether we want to or not.
Therammo wrote:Another issue I have is, if we live in multiverse where all possible outcomes are actually possible, then it means that there are infinite amount copies of me, and some copies are presidents, doctors, criminals etc.

Now, with that said, what are your opinion on , me living again after I die on this earth? Will I eventually be born again and live same life again, or will I cease to exist, because there are infinite number of ''me'' out there, so it wouldn't break any mathematic number?
Well, according to the multiverse model, all possible outcomes are actually realized, not just "possible". By definition they are possible. The point of this theory is that all possible outcomes are indeed realized in some so called "parallel universe". So yes, according to this view, in these alleged "parallel universes" there are other versions of "you" --- the "you" that could have been, or could be, or could become, but not the "you" that actually was, is, or will be in this Universe.

Now, as far as you living another life, according to the theory of recurrence your next life will not be an exact replica of the current one, but it will be very similar. By this I mean that while incidental details might be different in your next life, all the "big" things and events which occurred in this life will repeat in the next.

What does this mean? Well, first of all it means you will be born at the same time and place as the last time. If you were a Aries last time, you'll be an Aries again. Your genetic code will also be very similar. Once again, you will have the same general features --- brown hair, green eyes, a tendency to be healthy, or on the contrary, a tendency to be sick often, and so on. You will also have the same mother, father, brothers and sisters, etc. And once again you will live in the same city, the same country, with the same monuments, history, and general society. All the "big" things repeat. Why? Because the forces that caused these things are very "big", and they will be around the next time to produce the same general effects.

However, all of this does not at all apply to all the details of your life, all the "incidental" things which happened the last time around which were not caused by these big cosmic forces, but rather were caused by small, trivial forces. These events may not repeat due to the incidental and random nature of the forces involved. What does this mean? It means that the next time around, when you are walking to school again, just like you did in your past life, you may take 875 steps to get there, rather than 876. Or you might notice a leaf falling from a tree this time on your walk, whereas last time you did not notice it, either because you just weren't aware of it last time or perhaps because the last time it fell 10 seconds earlier or later and you couldn't have seen it. Or perhaps in the last life, when you were playing monopoly with some friends, at a certain point you rolled an 11, whereas in this life you happen to roll a 12, and so on. The key to differentiating whether or not something will repeat or not is mainly based on the nature of the forces involved, whether they are "big" (like the Sun rising in the East), or "small" (like a slighly different force and direction of a die being rolled in a monopoly game).

As far as you not existing anymore because you "wouldn't be missed", this is quite false. You certainly would be. As you said, all those other "you's" are indeed "you", just not the particular "you" you are realizing in the present moment, so if "you" disappear absolutely, ceasing to exist, having no awareness of any kind or any existence of any kind, then all of those "other you's" would also disappear, leaving a sort of "gap" in the cosmic order. It is precisely because those "other you's" exist that the theory of recurrence says you must "live on" after death, since, after all, what the multiverse model shows us is that "you" are a much bigger quantity than your apparently temporal existence would suggest at first glance. This model shows us that we are but one of many entities which exist in parallel in the Cosmos-at-large, and that our "lives" are but one passage of our awareness over the lifetime of one of those entities, all of which could be said to be "you". So our lives could be said to be the realization of but one of those possibly infinite number of "you's".

Let me finish by explaining one of the practical ideas behind this theory. This theory says that any progress that one makes in this life will not be wasted, because it will have an effect on the next life. But it also implies that any failures or "missed opportunities" will also have an effect on the next life. The idea is that tendencies can be strengthened or weakened from one life to the next. So let us suppose that a man has a tendency in this life to want to develop himself, to do good things, to be a "good person", or something along those lines. But he also has an inherent tendency to be lazy and to vacillate at the very moment he needs to act. Now let us suppose that this man struggles in this life against this tendency in himself to be lazy, he opposes this tendency with his other tendency to want to "be all he can be". The idea here is that if he makes progress in this life against this tendency in himself to be lazy and to vacillate, if he struggles against it will all his heart and soul and achieves some progress in this area, then his efforts will not be "lost" at death. In the next life he will have a stronger tendency to "be all he can be", and a weaker tendency to be lazy and vacillate. If he continues in the next life, in the same way, then again in his next life each tendency at birth will continue to grow or weaken in the same direction, until possibly eventually he might be born without any tendency to be lazy and weak at all. Conversely, if he does not struggle against his tendency to be lazy, and does not strengthen his tendency to "be all he can be", then in the next life he may be born with an even stronger tendency to be lazy and vacillate, until eventually his other tendency to oppose that and overcome it may disappear altogether and he may lose any opportunity to overcome this weakness in himself in a future life. So the general practical idea behind this theory is that progress or degeneration can sort of "carry over" or gain or lose momentum from one life to the next.

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 7325
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Greta » February 3rd, 2015, 3:14 am

Therammo wrote:Another issue I have is, if we live in multiverse where all possible outcomes are actually possible, then it means that there are infinite amount copies of me, and some copies are presidents, doctors, criminals etc.

Now, with that said, what are your opinion on , me living again after I die on this earth? Will I eventually be born again and live same life again, or will I cease to exist, because there are infinite number of ''me'' out there, so it wouldn't break any mathematic number?
Atreyu wrote:Well, according to the multiverse model, all possible outcomes are actually realized, not just "possible". By definition they are possible. The point of this theory is that all possible outcomes are indeed realized in some so called "parallel universe". So yes, according to this view, in these alleged "parallel universes" there are other versions of "you" --- the "you" that could have been, or could be, or could become, but not the "you" that actually was, is, or will be in this Universe.
Not being an expert I get confused with this side of QM. On one hand we have "many worlds" envisioned as bubbles of spacetime in hyperspace. It's believed that there are potentially an infinite number of these "bubble universes". Then there's parallel universes suggested as an answer to the double slit experiment. Some posit that the unrealised potential of waves that are rendered tangible by observation don't disappear but move into alternate realities.

Either way, infinite possibilities need not necessarily mean that all possibilities are realised. Many possibilities will still be on the universe's "to do list" when it degenerates into black holes an then near nothingness. The chances of the universe reproducing an exact replica of you are extremely remote and the chances are that it will run through many other more likely permutations before getting to the "repeat Therammo" and "repeat Greta" possibilities.

However, the biosphere (or other biospheres) may reproduce each of your broad characteristics many times, but most likely not in the same "attribute bundle".
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.

User avatar
Misty
Contributor
Posts: 5933
Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Misty » February 3rd, 2015, 8:37 am

Therammo wrote:If we live in a multiverse that indicates eternal inflation, does it mean we actually live over and over again the same life?

Do all matter and particles that makes ''me'' me, fall in the same chronological order which will indicate that I am indeed a product of eternal and infinite energy?

This frightens me, mostly because we are not able to control whether we actually want to exist or not. We are just a product of eternal inflation that always existed and will continue to exist for eternity, thus making us eternal beings.

Another issue I have is, if we live in multiverse where all possible outcomes are actually possible, then it means that there are infinite amount copies of me, and some copies are presidents, doctors, criminals etc.

Now, with that said, what are your opinion on , me living again after I die on this earth? Will I eventually be born again and live same life again, or will I cease to exist, because there are infinite number of ''me'' out there, so it wouldn't break any mathematic number?

Sorry if it was hard to understand or just bad grammar, english is not my main language.

Greetings
Hi Therammo,

If there are multiverses we don't live in the multiverses but along side of them. Multiverse can mean identical or diverse. If identical you would not be different from the you that is here. If diverse then it does not imply you are indeed a part of other universes. Humans are already in the quandary of not being able to control self existence, (except in this life by committing suicide of our body/life here as we know it) so why are you frightened by a theory? Furthermore, our own universe teaches us life/death cycles, but the life/death cycle cycles into new/different life/death entities, i.e. parent child, etc..

Eternal inflation is not without deflation and destruction. A balloon can be inflated and deflated and inflated to the point of exploding, thus destroying the original and leaving the fragments to die out or evolve.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.

User avatar
Theophane
Posts: 2347
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 9:03 am
Favorite Philosopher: C.S. Lewis
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Theophane » February 3rd, 2015, 11:12 am

Are we eternal concurrently? Transcendently? The Dark Tower has many levels, and the Beams are breaking down.

User avatar
HZY
Posts: 252
Joined: January 30th, 2013, 11:09 pm

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by HZY » February 4th, 2015, 12:20 am

Therammo wrote:If we live in a multiverse that indicates eternal inflation, does it mean we actually live over and over again the same life?

Do all matter and particles that makes ''me'' me, fall in the same chronological order which will indicate that I am indeed a product of eternal and infinite energy?

This frightens me, mostly because we are not able to control whether we actually want to exist or not. We are just a product of eternal inflation that always existed and will continue to exist for eternity, thus making us eternal beings.

Another issue I have is, if we live in multiverse where all possible outcomes are actually possible, then it means that there are infinite amount copies of me, and some copies are presidents, doctors, criminals etc.

Now, with that said, what are your opinion on , me living again after I die on this earth? Will I eventually be born again and live same life again, or will I cease to exist, because there are infinite number of ''me'' out there, so it wouldn't break any mathematic number?

Sorry if it was hard to understand or just bad grammar, english is not my main language.

Greetings
Since multiverse don't come into contact with each other, so you can never find out if the other you(s) actually exist. Just like you can never be aware that you had previous existed, well, can't you?

User avatar
Atreyu
Posts: 1737
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Atreyu » February 4th, 2015, 2:28 am

Greta wrote:Not being an expert I get confused with this side of QM. On one hand we have "many worlds" envisioned as bubbles of spacetime in hyperspace. It's believed that there are potentially an infinite number of these "bubble universes". Then there's parallel universes suggested as an answer to the double slit experiment. Some posit that the unrealised potential of waves that are rendered tangible by observation don't disappear but move into alternate realities.

Either way, infinite possibilities need not necessarily mean that all possibilities are realised. Many possibilities will still be on the universe's "to do list" when it degenerates into black holes an then near nothingness. The chances of the universe reproducing an exact replica of you are extremely remote and the chances are that it will run through many other more likely permutations before getting to the "repeat Therammo" and "repeat Greta" possibilities.

However, the biosphere (or other biospheres) may reproduce each of your broad characteristics many times, but most likely not in the same "attribute bundle".
Everyone is confused by this idea until they grasp the fundamentals of higher dimensional theory. It's not really a 'side of QM', it's based on the theory of higher dimensions of space, and QM merely tries to reconcile itself with this idea.

There are no infinite possibilities. Possibilities are always finite and always realized. What is not realized is impossibilities. So if you are playing a game with your friends, and roll a 6, the idea here is that in a so called "parallel universe" a 2,3,4, and 5 were actually rolled, but our collective awareness only realized one of the 6 possibilities due to its limitation of only being able to perceive three dimensions of space at a time. If our awareness were able to perceive more than three dimensions of space, then we could realize all 6 possibilities at once. But in no "parallel world" is a 7 or 8, or a -2.5 rolled.

So the idea here is that all of those other "yous" already exist. They don't have to be created, they already are, both those said to be in the past as well as those said to be in the future. They all exist concurrently, simultaneously, and eternally, the only question is whether or not our awareness will ever realize them or not. In this model, the past, present, and future all simultaneously exist, as well as all possible pasts and futures. The best way to visualize this is to imagine a point travelling along a line. All of the points of the line actually exist, and always do, but from the point of view of the point itself, only the point it is on actually exists. The points already travelled are said to have existed in the past, but not anymore, while the points to be crossed are said to be that which will be, but is not yet. In this example the point represents our awareness, the points of the line already crossed represent our past, the points to be crossed represent our future, and all the other points on the plane on which the line is drawn represent possible pasts and futures --- possible paths the line could have taken but did not. And the idea here is that the entire plane actually exists, but that our present "reality" is limited to the particular point our awareness is on at the present moment.

So there is no need to imagine any "bang-crunch" model in order to arrive at an understanding of this theory and, in fact, it only obscures the reasoning behind this idea. All that is necessary is to be able to imagine how points of space outside our three dimensional space can be cognized by us as time/motion/phenomena when our three-dimensional reality (our awareness) crosses it, has crossed it, will cross it, is said to have crossed it, or is anticipated as going to cross it.

Harbal
Posts: 1532
Joined: May 6th, 2013, 4:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Harbal » February 9th, 2015, 4:35 pm

Therammo wrote:I Another issue I have is, if we live in multiverse where all possible outcomes are actually possible
Aren't all possible outcomes always actually possible?

If there are other yous in other universes then by virtue of the fact that they are "other" means they are not the same you, therefore, they are not you. So don't worry, you're not responsible for them.

Jerrygg38
Posts: 60
Joined: February 6th, 2015, 11:21 am

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Jerrygg38 » February 12th, 2015, 4:58 pm

Therammo wrote:If we live in a multiverse that indicates eternal inflation, does it mean we actually live over and over again the same life?

Do all matter and particles that makes ''me'' me, fall in the same chronological order which will indicate that I am indeed a product of eternal and infinite energy?

This frightens me, mostly because we are not able to control whether we actually want to exist or not. We are just a product of eternal inflation that always existed and will continue to exist for eternity, thus making us eternal beings.

Another issue I have is, if we live in multiverse where all possible outcomes are actually possible, then it means that there are infinite amount copies of me, and some copies are presidents, doctors, criminals etc.

Greetings
In my spiritual encounters of 1981, I threatened suicide if the spirits would not leave me alone. Then came the most frightening words I ever heard. "You cannot die". I do not believe in the multiverse as such but I do believe in a multi dimensional multi light speed universe. As one universe dies others are born such that there are always universes available for us. The Holocuast bothered me and the spirits told me that the Holocaust had occurred over a billion times before. Thus it is a perpetual occurrence in a perpetual universe. For a universe in a perpetual steady state condition, we will repeat our lives perfectly forever. for a universe with a degree of chaos, we will appear over and over again forever with slight variations. Unfortunately unless our souls are destroyed in the process most people will have to suffer an infinity of lives. I learned this in 1981. For 33 years I have learned to accept it. the only hope that I see is moving up to a higher level of existence or just being content with your present life. In addition to this there can be millions of copies of you all over the universe. However most will be like you. Unfortunately once we get these thoughts in our head, there is no easy way to erase them. All we can do is to live our lives and try to not worry about such thoughts. To me they are true , to others they are mere figments of the imagination. I can only hop that others are correct but I fear that is not true.

User avatar
Theophane
Posts: 2347
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 9:03 am
Favorite Philosopher: C.S. Lewis
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Theophane » February 12th, 2015, 5:09 pm

These spirits of yours, how do you know what they tell you is true?

Jerrygg38
Posts: 60
Joined: February 6th, 2015, 11:21 am

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Jerrygg38 » February 12th, 2015, 5:15 pm

HZY wrote:[ Greetings
Since multiverse don't come into contact with each other, so you can never find out if the other you(s) actually exist. Just like you can never be aware that you had previous existed, well, can't you?[/quote]

In my spiritual experiences I have been shown myself upon other planets. I have also encountered my soul which appears to me as a very ancient entity. Although I could see myself upon other planets it was similar to the Christmas carol in which he could see his past and future while being a neutral observer. It is possible that what I saw was the memory of my past lives upon other Earths in the memory of my soul. Yet at the time I felt that copies of myself existed in the here and now. In any event this always upset me for many years.

User avatar
HZY
Posts: 252
Joined: January 30th, 2013, 11:09 pm

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by HZY » February 12th, 2015, 5:28 pm

Jerrygg38 wrote:
HZY wrote:[ Greetings
Since multiverse don't come into contact with each other, so you can never find out if the other you(s) actually exist. Just like you can never be aware that you had previous existed, well, can't you?
In my spiritual experiences I have been shown myself upon other planets. I have also encountered my soul which appears to me as a very ancient entity. Although I could see myself upon other planets it was similar to the Christmas carol in which he could see his past and future while being a neutral observer. It is possible that what I saw was the memory of my past lives upon other Earths in the memory of my soul. Yet at the time I felt that copies of myself existed in the here and now. In any event this always upset me for many years.[/quote]

Why would it upset you?

Harbal
Posts: 1532
Joined: May 6th, 2013, 4:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Harbal » February 12th, 2015, 5:37 pm

This isn't spirituality, it's mental illness.

Jerrygg38
Posts: 60
Joined: February 6th, 2015, 11:21 am

Re: Are we eternal? (Eternal Recurrence)

Post by Jerrygg38 » February 12th, 2015, 6:12 pm

Theophane wrote:These spirits of yours, how do you know what they tell you is true?
That is a good question. I have lived with these spiritual encounters for over 70 years. Whatever I am told I study to see if it makes sense to me. When I was young I believed that my encounters was with god. They were always very helpful and friendly. It was like having a spiritual father. I would ask for help and it would happen. I would ask for advice and it was given. As a young man I used my spiritual gifts to solve difficult engineering problems. The data was always true. sometimes I was not well enough to take a test in college and the spirits would take over my mind and do the test for me. As long as I felt that these encounters were private and personal, I had no problems with my spiritual connections. Yet in 1981 I was fed data which upset me greatly. I was given a job to do and this I have performed for the last 33 years. Thus I study and try to understand God and the Universe. I was forced into this job. since no one cares what I have to say, to me it is just a big waste of time. Why me? When I asked how to find truth, the spirit said "Deny everything until you can no longer deny it". I told the spirit that I was insane and it did not exist. It grabbed me and I could not breath. Finally in my mind I said "I yield the point". The spirit meant me no harm but forced me into this task. So at 76 years old I only have a little time left to finish this task. In any event I do believe that the spirits are truthful but what value my effort has been is not apparently of value to the spirit or me. Perhaps it is my punishment for past lives infractions.

-- Updated February 12th, 2015, 6:28 pm to add the following --
HZY wrote:
Jerrygg38 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

Since multiverse don't come into contact with each other, so you can never find out if the other you(s) actually exist. Just like you can never be aware that you had previous existed, well, can't you?
In my spiritual experiences I have been shown myself upon other planets. I have also encountered my soul which appears to me as a very ancient entity. Although I could see myself upon other planets it was similar to the Christmas carol in which he could see his past and future while being a neutral observer. It is possible that what I saw was the memory of my past lives upon other Earths in the memory of my soul. Yet at the time I felt that copies of myself existed in the here and now. In any event this always upset me for many years.
Why would it upset you?[/quote]

When I was young I believed in god but I also believed that I would die and be no more.Typical Jewish concepts. My communications with the spiritual world was always pleasant and private. I was always upset over the Holocaust and why God should be kind to me and not concerned with humanity in general. 1981 was the year that data was transmitted into my mind and I was told that I could not die. This was very upsetting as the thought of being no more is very comforting to me. Life is neither all good nor all bad but in general it is hardly worthwhile. However it appears to me after all these years of study that god also feels much the same as me and others. god suffers existence and we suffer existence. My life has been relatively good. to repeat it with variations would not be that bad. The life of Jesus with variations is quite horrible. the life of the Holocaust victims is horrible. Yet they or others will repeat the same misery over and over again. Many people have horrible lives. We are little creatures in the fishbowl of life. somehow we came to be and we must live in our fishbowl forever. Perhaps I am lucky the worst I can expect is to spend an eternity studying god and the Universe. Having a wife and family and good health up to now provides me with comfort in my tasks. So for me according to Voltaire. This is the best of all possible worlds for me. Thanks for the question.

Post Reply