Space the now point in time

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Gordon975
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Gordon975 »

This post is to explain the peculiarities common to quantum Super Position in terms of perceiving space as the present time.

To understand perhaps better about the problem I am trying to explain please refer to the following links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ3bPUKo5zc
ls.poly.edu/~jbain/philqm/philqmlecture ... riment.pdf
http://www.drcruzan.com/Chemistry_Electrons.html

Hardness and Colour in terms of the lectures and PDF file explanation refer to particle spin direction.

The anomalies, which seem so strange when encountered in experiment can potentially be explained in terms of space as the now point in time with past and future either side.

I postulate that as a particle passes through the present in the form of space, the vortex of the passage of time through it deforms the past and future existing either side of the present.

The deformation of past and future time, would potentially occur because although the rate of the passage of time through a particle is constant at the speed of light, the vortex speed would be greater, leaving in the wake of a particle, time either side of the present in both, the past and the future, in an ambiguous state. As the result of the ambiguous state of time either side of space, subsequent electrons passing along the same path are affected so effecting their spin orientation.

All the experimental physics done with this problem has assumed space to just be void and unaffected by the passage of the particle passing through it, this may be true but the time in the form of past and future either side of the present would potentially not be unaffected.
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Present awareness »

I postulate that as a particle passes through the present in the form of space, the vortex of the passage of time through it deforms the past and future existing either side of the present.
I postulate that a particle does not pass through the present, but rather remains IN the present at all times. Past and future do not exist. Everything that ever was and everything that ever will be, is here and now. There is constant change of forms and motion, but it is all happens WITHIN the present moment. Our sense of time is derived from memory and prediction. The memory of previous forms or the prediction of what might happen tomorrow, but these two forms of thinking may only take place NOW, since NOW is the only time we will ever find ourselves in.
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Gordon975 »

Present awareness wrote:

I postulate that a particle does not pass through the present, but rather remains IN the present at all times. Past and future do not exist. Everything that ever was and everything that ever will be, is here and now. There is constant change of forms and motion, but it is all happens WITHIN the present moment. Our sense of time is derived from memory and prediction. The memory of previous forms or the prediction of what might happen tomorrow, but these two forms of thinking may only take place NOW, since NOW is the only time we will ever find ourselves in.
I agree with everything you have posted.

All particles remain in the present and can only exist in the present time. Past and future don't exist as any record of a history of any present time existence but time has a past and a future, the particles from which all material things are made can only exist at the now point in time between the two.

What I am trying to expand on in this topic is the idea that what we consider as the void of space is really the now point in time, with the past and future either side.

My last post was trying to further suggest that some of the experimental results obtained for electrons, and the basis of quantum physics, might be explained if space were the now point in time with the past and future either side.

Experiments on electron spin seem to give results that defy common sense and logic unless of course the past and future parts of time were taken into account on either side of space, in which case they just might make sense.
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Present awareness »

What I am trying to expand on in this topic is the idea that what we consider as the void of space is really the now point in time, with the past and future either side.
Yes, I think you are on to something. I feel that space IS the now point, in which all things exist. Where I have difficulty, is in the concept of the past and future being on either side. For example, the light that left my body as a child, is still travelling through space here and now, just as we may see the light that has left some distant star 100's of years ago.
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Atreyu »

Gordon, I'm still confident, after trying to follow your posts, that you are simply struggling to understand the space-time paradigm. If I understand you correctly, science already does consider space as the "now point" in time, and in the context in which you yourself mean it.

There is no mystery here. Our three-dimensional space is the "now point" on the timeline. When we map time, using a timeline, we are mapping time as if it were space. Normally, we map it as a line, a straight line to be exact. Each point on the timeline represents the entire three-dimensional world as it is at that particular moment of time. So if one particular point on the timeline represents the present moment, or "now", then that point represents one particular point on the "line of time", which we have labeled "now", and which represents our entire three-dimensional world in the moment. The points to the left represent our entire three-dimensional world as it was - you might call them the "past points in time", and the points to the right represent our entire three-dimensional world as it will be - you might call them the "future points in time".

Positing about whether or not "space is the now point in time" is simply another way of positing that the way we map time might have a real validity in the world, that time and space may be relative according to the perceiver, and that what is "time" for one perceiver might be "space" for another, or vice versa. In other words, all you're really asking is "Is there any truth to the space-time paradigm?"

I myself would say 'yes'. When we cognize time as a timeline, our minds are intuitively honing in on the objective truth. Even though we experience time as a series of passing moments, our cognition tells us that this cannot really be so. We know that if the present moment really exists, then so must also all the moments of the past and future as well. Our cognition tells us that the reason why we say that only the present "really exists" is simply because the past and future are outside of the boundaries of our direct perception and experience. We can experience only one moment ("point") of time, rather than multiple moments ("points") of time simultaneously, simply due to the limitations of our psychic apparatus. If it were augmented, we might experience all of a month or a year at once - the "present moment" might become a month or a year long. And this is so because "time" is the peculiar way that awareness perceives/cognizes the dimensions of space (space-time) beyond the first three., i.e. "time" is the peculiar way that awareness deals with the dimensions of space which are beyond its capacity to perceive as such, that is, spatially. Things in the Universe which our awareness cannot perceive as such, (that is, as "things", meaning things existing in space, and having shape and form), it perceives as motion, energy, phenomenon, events - i.e. it perceives them in terms of time, rather than space....
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Present awareness »

NASA discovered an earth like planet 1400 light years away. Both that planet and the Earth exist In the now, the only thing which separates us is space, lots of space! Since space is the now point, everything that exist in space, exists now. A person on that planet would see the light that left the Earth 1400 years ago. From their point of view, we are not even born yet. This would suggest to me that past and future exist now and all that really happens is that things change position within the space, but no matter what space they move to, that space will always be now.
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Gordon975 »

Present Awareness wrote:

Yes, I think you are on to something. I feel that space IS the now point, in which all things exist. Where I have difficulty, is in the concept of the past and future being on either side. For example, the light that left my body as a child, is still travelling through space here and now, just as we may see the light that has left some distant star 100's of years ago.

NASA discovered an earth like planet 1400 light years away. Both that planet and the Earth exist In the now, the only thing which separates us is space, lots of space! Since space is the now point, everything that exist in space, exists now. A person on that planet would see the light that left the Earth 1400 years ago. From their point of view, we are not even born yet. This would suggest to me that past and future exist now and all that really happens is that things change position within the space, but no matter what space they move to, that space will always be now.
I agree again with both your posts except the part suggesting that the past and future exist now although perhaps I've misunderstood your meaning.

In the model I am describing here only the present exist as the reality we experience now and the past and future exist either side.

Light always exists in the present and with the model this topic is exploring it travels within the present between past and future versions of time.

I share your problem regarding the concept of past and future being on either side of the present although it seems perhaps the simplistic way to describe it. Perhaps a better way to think of time would be to think of it as just a now point in time. Past and Future are just concepts that we can have just at the now point and mean nothing outside of it. Time exists however either side of the present in some form but to describe it as past and future is perhaps misleading and perhaps a lazy way to do it. The idea that time from either side of the present, passes through at a weak point in the present representing a particle, may in reality be that the two halves of time merge at that point. Everything that exists including electromagnetic radiation exit in the present all material things created from particles also exits at the now point in time and each particle represents a merger of time existing either side of the now point in time.

Assuming the particle definition above to be correct then we might possibly assume that there may be a disturbance in the time either side of the present along the path that a particle travelled which would not be apparent in the present time but would exist in the time either side, the disturbance resulting from the passage of a particle may cause changes to another particle travelling the same trajectory.

There are many odd ideas about how everything exists but so far I have been unable to find any reference to the one this topic is trying to describe, but strangely it seems to fit well with how science perceives many of the things around us. I have hoped that by sharing this idea within this forum I might get some feedback from others who might have encountered a similar idea or who could challenge it.

As far as I can see physics in trying to explain the existence of the Universe and everything but has perhaps not yet grasped something fundamental and what I think must be a very simple characteristic about how everything is made and has come into existence. This topic is my contribution to finding that simple characteristic that I think must exist in some form.

The concept of space as the now point in time with time either side is a concept that I believe needs to be explored and scrutinised with science by experiment and by comparing existing mathematics and experimental results with what they would be by applying the ideas outlined in this topic.
atreyu wrote:

Gordon, I'm still confident, after trying to follow your posts, that you are simply struggling to understand the space-time paradigm. If I understand you correctly, science already does consider space as the "now point" in time, and in the context in which you yourself mean it.
In some ways I am perhaps struggling to rethink the space-time paradigm, which I think most physicists, would agree is still not fully explainable or understood.

Perhaps, the important part of this topic and perhaps very unconventional, concerns the idea that either side of space, time exists as perhaps what may be considered past and future time, this passing through the now point in time creates the particles from which everything is made.

I would also like to suggest that the problems, that occur in the illogical behaviour observed when studying the passage of electrons and other particles in experiments associated with super position may be caused by the disturbance caused in the past and future elements of time as the result of their passage. In this model of the existence of space I am trying to describe a model that suggests that space is a condition of time and everything that we perceive as existing in it is actually created from it in other words everything we can perceive can be re-described based on its existence as the result of time and really nothing else. This is in some ways an exploration of a different way to see how everything may exist and as the scientific community has not reliably produced anything that can explain what anything is really made of, this is an attempt to debate the subject by perhaps looking at an alternative solution to the ones that currently give no sound answers.
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Re: Space the now point in time

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Atreyu wrote: But learning to cognize time as space (the space-time model) explains many things which could not be explained if we took our subjective experience of time at face value, i.e. if we assumed that only the present moment had any real existence....
This isn't true. One can take our subjective experience of time at face value without violating any experimental findings. It is a personal preference and not some unavoidable logical implication of relativity, etc.:
Often a single theory is compatible with many different philosophical interpretations. There is no possible way to resolve a dispute between different philosophical interpretations through appeal to experiment because all of them make the same predictions for all experiments. The choice between philosophical interpretations is therefore entirely a matter of personal philosophical preference.

For special relativity (SR), the mathematical model is the Minkowski space, a four-dimensional pseudo-Euclidean affine manifold. The symmetry group determining this structure is the proper orthochronous Poincaré (or inhomogeneous Lorentz) group which includes the Lorentz transform.

There are two primary philosophical interpretations: the Block Universe (BU) and Lorentz Aether Theory (LET). The BU considers the universe to exist as a single fixed 4D geometric structure which is not dynamically evolving over time since time is one of the dimensions of the structure. The LET considers the universe to be a 3D world evolving over time and with a single undetectable "true" rest frame. Both BU and LET use the Lorentz transform, etc., to make all of their experimental predictions, and therefore they are scientifically indistinguishable, making the same experimental predictions in all cases.
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/w ... st-4859428

Personally, I'm not sympathetic to the static Block Universe interpretation where the moment of my birth and death are “there” on my time-line for eternity, where all events of my life are fixed once and for all, beyond my control, and in apparent conflict with my freedom of choice.

Absolute Being vs Relative Becoming
http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0610049.pdf
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Re: Space the now point in time

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Bohm2 wrote:Personally, I'm not sympathetic to the static Block Universe interpretation where the moment of my birth and death are “there” on my time-line for eternity, where all events of my life are fixed once and for all, beyond my control, and in apparent conflict with my freedom of choice.

Absolute Being vs Relative Becoming
http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0610049.pdf
I can relate to your misgivings about block time, but where does that leave the backwards capability of time in Einstein's models? It would seem that either block time is real and we only have a partial perception of temporal reality, or there is a fundamental flaw in the spacetime paradigm.
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Gordon975 »

Greta wrote: I can relate to your misgivings about block time, but where does that leave the backwards capability of time in Einstein's models? It would seem that either block time is real and we only have a partial perception of temporal reality, or there is a fundamental flaw in the space-time paradigm.
It is quite possible that there is a fundamental flaw in the space-time paradigm as Einstein suggests it.

There is currently no system that describes all of the physical phenomena that we observe and the need for quantum physics plus string theory plus a few others alongside the theories of Einstein to enable the theory to fit the facts may indicate that the mathematics was wrong or applied using the wrong assumptions about the fundamental existence of the environment in which everything exists to be analysed.

This topic is trying to suggest a different environment.

The problem with the block model of time would appear to be that there is no scientific experimental proof of its validity, and the conclusion that its concept could possibly be a valid one, defies common sense.

The block model of time, if I have understood it correctly, would suggest that everything that has ever happened and perhaps will ever happen continues to exits for all time.

When believing the block universe model we should consider that the diameter of the observable universe is 91 billion light years and might be infinite, it is thought to be 13.8 billion years old, there are 100 billion galaxies and apparently there might be more, possibly up to 500 billion, each with billions of suns. The logic encapsulated in the idea that all the past and future exist at once at one time would I think indicate that the path and location of every atomic particle in existence within this vast universe of material could be traced, and in some way visited for any time within the past 13.8 billion years and beyond, and also possibly for at least a similar time into the future, this just cannot be correct. Whatever system exists for the existence of everything it has to be simple at least at its most primitive level for everything to work everywhere, and on the scale that it does.
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Re: Space the now point in time

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Thanks Gordon. Do you have thoughts on Jeff Tollaksen's experiments? He measured the radioactive decay of atoms and found that the rate of decay was affected by both past and future experiments. discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/01-back-f ... the-future.

The results are thought provoking but obviously don't say anything about the idea of large objects reaching back over cosmic time scales. At our scale, I guess you could say that our present is influenced by both our history and intent, so there is an oblique similarity. We can never mentally grasp the present, at best reflecting immediately post hoc or anticipating or predicting the immediate future. I couldn't even hazard a guess as to how far those influences stretch, though, maybe an "it depends" answer.
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Gordon975 »

Greta Wrote: Thanks Gordon. Do you have thoughts on Jeff Tollaksen's experiments? He measured the radioactive decay of atoms and found that the rate of decay was affected by both past and future experiments. discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/01-back-f ... the-future.


Thanks for the link regarding Jeff Tollaksen's experiments.

The radioactive particle decay on which Jeff Tollaksen's experiments are based are an interesting enigma that could perhaps be explained by the subject of this topic.

A particle will decay when it becomes unstable and its stability or non stability depends on the particles of which it is composed and presumably those that may orbit its nucleus.

At an atomic level the scale of a particle is very small but in relation to the size of a particle the orbits and distances between them are huge, therefore assuming that an orbit is tilted or moves at each completed circuit of a nucleus then the chance that one will coincide exactly with a previous one are remote but given the laws of chance certain to happen at some point.

The suggestion implicit in the model described here is that as a particle moves through the present time it leaves a path of disturbed time ether side of the present, half in the past, half in the future.

At the same time as a particle moves, time passing through it vortexes creating a spin and imparting certain properties to the individual particle and also changing the properties of time either side of its path in both the past and future.

One possibility leading to particle instability is that by chance a particle enters a path that has been disturbed and because of the alignment of time within it, in the past and in future is affected and its characteristics changed leading to instability within the atom of which it is part.
Greta Wrote: The results are thought provoking but obviously don't say anything about the idea of large objects reaching back over cosmic time scales. At our scale, I guess you could say that our present is influenced by both our history and intent, so there is an oblique similarity. We can never mentally grasp the present, at best reflecting immediately post hoc or anticipating or predicting the immediate future. I couldn't even hazard a guess as to how far those influences stretch, though, maybe an "it depends" answer.
Any species of life of which the human species is one, only needs to comprehend and understand the world and through evolution best adapt to enable the survival of the species, within a particular environment, an appreciation of time needs to exist just to the extent where this is possible.

The important characteristic about the human species which sets it apart from most others is its ability to evolve through intellect, and as part of that intellectual process quest for, an understanding of the universal laws implicit in the universe and on this planet, this is perhaps part of the human species destiny, as a contribution to the long term survival of all species of life.
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Bohm2 »

Greta wrote:It would seem that either block time is real and we only have a partial perception of temporal reality, or there is a fundamental flaw in the spacetime paradigm.
I think QM points in the direction that the spacetime paradigm may be flawed. Whether spacetime is an emergent property (whatever that implies) as some physicists have suggested is unclear. The non-locality inherent in QM appears to question the spacetime paradigm.
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Re: Space the now point in time

Post by Atreyu »

Bohm2 wrote:
Atreyu wrote: But learning to cognize time as space (the space-time model) explains many things which could not be explained if we took our subjective experience of time at face value, i.e. if we assumed that only the present moment had any real existence....
This isn't true. One can take our subjective experience of time at face value without violating any experimental findings. It is a personal preference and not some unavoidable logical implication of relativity, etc.:
Well, our perception of time itself cannot be adequately explained without the space-time paradigm. It makes no sense to assert that only "the present moment" exists when that moment is subjectively experienced. In fact, the very idea of a "present moment" is completely arbitrary - we can never catch it. What we say is the "present" in fact is always the very recent past. And how long is the present moment? .01 seconds? .001 seconds? .0135 - .0535 seconds? And for whom? Is the "present" the same interval for everyone? Is it the same for all living things?

Only the space-time model resolves this issue. It objectifies time, and does not assume that the way we subjectively perceive it is the way the Universe really is. What is the "present" for one awareness, is the "past" or the "future" for another awareness. And that is what science does - it takes our subjective perceptions and tries to explain them more objectively. It does that with matter, energy, force, and all other phenomena under consideration. Why should time be any different?

To assume an objective reality to our subjective perception of time is both poor philosophy and poor science.....
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Re: Space the now point in time

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Gordon975 wrote:The suggestion implicit in the model described here is that as a particle moves through the present time it leaves a path of disturbed time ether side of the present, half in the past, half in the future.

At the same time as a particle moves, time passing through it vortexes creating a spin and imparting certain properties to the individual particle and also changing the properties of time either side of its path in both the past and future.

One possibility leading to particle instability is that by chance a particle enters a path that has been disturbed and because of the alignment of time within it, in the past and in future is affected and its characteristics changed leading to instability within the atom of which it is part.
Motion is well worth considering given that our most persistent illusion is that of staying still when we are moving through space at over two million kph and if we're moving through the Higgs or a "quantum ocean" (which may not be entirely uniform in density) then you might expect effects from that too.
Gordon975 wrote:Any species of life of which the human species is one, only needs to comprehend and understand the world and through evolution best adapt to enable the survival of the species, within a particular environment, an appreciation of time needs to exist just to the extent where this is possible.

The important characteristic about the human species which sets it apart from most others is its ability to evolve through intellect, and as part of that intellectual process quest for, an understanding of the universal laws implicit in the universe and on this planet, this is perhaps part of the human species destiny, as a contribution to the long term survival of all species of life.
Speculatively, perhaps one part of that difference is our relationship to time? As Dan Gilbert noted, humans have the capacity to consider the future and past more broadly than other animals - we live, less focused in the moment. I think of it as "temporal blurring", where the present moment for humans stretches into the past and future. We do this so routinely that we perform deliberate exercises and activities to bring us more sharply into the present moment.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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