Philosophy Discussion Forums

Gordon975 wrote:Present awareness Wrote:

The reason one may not step outside of the "now" is because there is no place "outside" of space.
There is no past or future on either side of space, because space does not have "sides".

If space is consider to be "that which is not there" then anything which "is" there (like matter), is contained within space.

In what you say you are explaining how space exits this does not explain why space exists or what it really is.

What I'm saying is space does "not" exist, space isn't there, that's why it is called space. Because space isn't there, it isn't there everywhere in the universe. That which "is" there, occupies that which isn't there, so that everything is contained within space.

The reason "why" space isn't there, is anybody's guess, but the isn't there- ness of empty space is necessary to make room for that which "is" there to exist.

Oh great - we're doing mad theories of space and time. I've got one.

The big bang distributed energy across time as well as space. There is matter in the meta-universe that is ahead of this universe in time, and behind this universe in time - that we do not directly experience, but of which we can observe the gravitational effect on the galactic scale. We call this dark matter! This distribution occurred during the period referred to as inflation - a faster than light expansion of the early universe. The period of expansion is proportional to the temporal front of the meta-universe - not the past and future of the observable universe, but the breadth of the distribution of energy and matter that remains always ahead of us and always behind us as it continues into the future at the same rate.

Your mad theory is as good as anyone else's, I suppose.

Light is considered to be the universal constant (C) in which nothing may go faster. It's what gives weight to Einstein's E=MC2, but maybe that theory is wrong too?

No only are the galaxies expanding away from each other, but they appear to be speeding up. We may as well say there is an invisible dark energy responsible, since there is no other plausible explanation.

Time is a human concept which makes sense out of motion thru space. However, take the observer out if the equation, and there is no time. Before you were born, you could say a million years, a billion years or even a trillion years went by and it made no difference to he fact that you are here, now.

Present awareness wrote:Your mad theory is as good as anyone else's, I suppose.

Light is considered to be the universal constant (C) in which nothing may go faster. It's what gives weight to Einstein's E=MC2, but maybe that theory is wrong too?

No only are the galaxies expanding away from each other, but they appear to be speeding up. We may as well say there is an invisible dark energy responsible, since there is no other plausible explanation.

Time is a human concept which makes sense out of motion thru space. However, take the observer out if the equation, and there is no time. Before you were born, you could say a million years, a billion years or even a trillion years went by and it made no difference to he fact that you are here, now.

I'm not a astro-physicist, but I watch a lot of documentaries, and as I understand it - the early expansion of the universe was faster than light. I don't know whether this conflicts with Einstein's Law or not, because strictly speaking, inflation was the expansion of space itself. The limiting time parameter of c may not apply, because the limit refers to the maximum speed in terms of space-time - which only came into being as a consequence of the big bang. Limiting the big bang to the speed of light would be to suggest that the physics it brought into being already pertained.

My understanding of space, time and the creation of the universe, differs from yours, Mercury and I suppose a Christian would simply say, "God created it all". Opinions vary, and the point isn't to prove who's right or wrong, but rather to enrich the philosophy on the possibilities of origin and how things came to be.

Thanks for telling me what my purpose here is. I was wondering about that. You see, by putting forward my mad theory I did seek to 'enrich the philosophy on the possibilities of origin and how things came to be' - but then you implied, in a rather passive aggressive way I thought, that my mad theory was at odds with an established fact - namely the speed of light. An implication I believe is incorrect - and I said so. For you now to tell me - it isn't about who's right and wrong, seems to me - contradictory, because surely, that was the nature of your response to my initial post. Unless you have genuine reason to believe that Einstein might be wrong - do you?

I believe anyone can be wrong, including Einstein. Our understanding of things, is based on knowledge that we have accumulated up to now. Humans will continue to accumulate knowledge, and adjust their understanding accordingly.
What is the point of trying to prove the rightness or wrongness of a statement based on theory, speculation or blind faith?
If the speed of light is the constant, used to calculate the age of the universe and suddenly we have something moving faster then light, then all those calculation would be invalid, IMO. By the way, do you have a theory on how someone would go about measuring something faster then light?

Einstein's theory of special relativity only applies to locally observed space-time events, for obvious reasons: we cannot theorize about things we cannot accurately observe and measure, such as the motion of objects on the other side of yesterday, i.e., on the borders of our known universe.

Present awareness Wrote:

The reason "why" space isn't there, is anybody's guess

I agree this is the universally held opinion and this is exactly the problem that this topic is
all about trying to explain by suggesting that there is nothing there because what we are
observing as space is a state of time and has a physical dimension that can be from zero
to infinity and has no mass. Everything we see touch think and do is contained in space
and yet we don't know why that space exists, this is a fundamental question that needs to
be answered for us to understand how everything really is. Otherwise we still exist within
a culture based on faith.

Mercury Wrote:

The big bang distributed energy across time as well as space

There is no proof that there was a big bang, only observations of an expanding universe
and background radiation, which could have been caused for reasons that we do not yet
understand. The big bang theory is based on faith not good science and there are many
arguments against it perhaps the best is "what was there before the big bang".

Present awareness Wrote:

Time is a human concept, which makes sense out of motion
thru space. However, take the observer out if the equation, and there is no time.

Time is part of the environment in which all life exists and adapts to over the millennia
via reproductive natural selection. The human intellect through evolution as the result of
reproductive natural selection is perhaps now able to better analyse and understand time
but time has always existed as it is or we would not be here to observe it.

Present awareness Wrote:

Not only are the galaxies expanding away from each other, but
also they appear to be speeding up. We may as well say there is an invisible dark energy
responsible, since there is no other plausible explanation.

Perhaps there is another explanation based on the idea of this topic.
At the centre of each galaxy it is generally accepted that there is a Black Hole
this amounts to a huge concentration of matter in the concept of this topic, matter is
composed of particles, which in themselves represent holes in the present time through
which time is passing. The rate at which one of the particles can physically move is
regulated by their size and to the rate at which time can pass through them for them to be
stable in the present time. I would like to suggest that in the centre of a galaxy black hole
with a sufficient concentration of matter a hole is held in place that is far larger than
would be stable in the present time state of space or normal matter. The resulting particle
which I will call here a "white hole" absorbs time at a far greater rate than a conventional
atomic particle so increasing the gravitational effect of the black hole and drawing in more
material which in turn increases the size of the white hole and so increase the mass of the
black hole. This could perhaps account for the shortage of mass apparent in the
universe. Further more as the white hole is moving with the galaxy and its black hole its
flow of time increases and that flow increases at a greater rate from the direction being
moved to than the direction moved from so causing a continuous force in the direction of movement
and hence acceleration which continues with time as more matter is drawn into the
black hole hence increasing the size of the white one.

I agree that the Big Bang is just a theory, Gordon, and there are other possible theories to explain the universe. However, I don't agree that space has dimensions, for how could one measure something that isn't there? The concept of time, does not apply to space either, because that which isn't there is timeless, in the sense that space has always not been there. The time concept applies to matter, moving thru space or anything else humans may observe. Since space isn't there, it may not be observed but only implied by the presence of matter.

Present awareness wrote:I believe anyone can be wrong, including Einstein. Our understanding of things, is based on knowledge that we have accumulated up to now. Humans will continue to accumulate knowledge, and adjust their understanding accordingly.
What is the point of trying to prove the rightness or wrongness of a statement based on theory, speculation or blind faith?
If the speed of light is the constant, used to calculate the age of the universe and suddenly we have something moving faster then light, then all those calculation would be invalid, IMO. By the way, do you have a theory on how someone would go about measuring something faster then light?

Distance traveled divided by time elapsed. obvs!

And this is the case with inflation. Without supposing, what's described as the exponential growth of the early universe - it couldn't be as big as it is in the time allowed. This is from the Cosmic Times:


The Big Bang theory has a problem, say scientists. It can't go from a tiny ball of energy to the universe we see today without some help. It needs an adjustment called inflation.
...
Inflation Theory explains this by stating that shortly after the Big Bang, the universe expanded tremendously in a very short amount of time. This expansion grew the size of the universe from submicroscopic to the size of a golf ball in 10-35 seconds. Thus, regions once in contact with each other are now far apart in the universe.



This is much faster than the speed of light; and my conjecture is that during this period, energy was distributed across a range of time as well as space. All the universe doesn't exist in the present. What exists now - moves forward into the future, preceded and followed by different but similar universes. These continue to exert a gravitational effect. This explains the Vera Rubin problem of missing mass, defines dark matter, and removes the need for matter / anti-matter annihilation. It's quite an elegant idea - and I can see no obvious reason why not; but I have no idea how one might go about proving it, or disproving it.

We are both here, now, regardless of where we are located in space. If you live on the other side of Earth, you are in darkness and I'm in light, but that does not mean you are in the future or past. To prove it, I can phone you and talk to you here and now. If I walk down the road, the road ahead of me is not in the future and the road behind me in the past, the entire road is here now, regardless of my position. The light that bounces of my body, will be 186,000 miles away in one second, but will still be here and now, only in a different position in space. The light from the Sun, takes about 5 minutes to reach Earth, but is here and now throughout it's entire journey through space.

[quote="Present awareness

The light from the sun takes 8 minuets to reach earth, a commonly known fact - you could have looked up... on the internet!

I took a guess, but the time it takes sunlight to reach the Earth, is not the point. The point is, everything in the universe is here, now, regardless of where it is located in space.

Present awareness wrote:I took a guess, but the time it takes sunlight to reach the Earth, is not the point. The point is, everything in the universe is here, now, regardless of where it is located in space.

Well, you were only 37.5% out with your guess - about a commonly known fact that you could have looked up in seconds. Clearly, you've shown both your knowledge and research skills are insufficient to tell me I'm wrong. But thanks for playing!

-- Updated October 15th, 2016, 8:07 pm to add the following --

22
THE MYSTERY OF THE MISSING MASS

[159] Most of the mass in the universe is missing. Or is it merely hidden in some exotic, as yet undetectable form? No one is sure which. One thing is sure, though. The problem of the missing mass has gotten to the point where it is more than just a problem. It is an embarrassment, an obstacle to understanding such things as the structure of galaxies, the evolution of clusters of galaxies, and the ultimate fate of the universe.

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-466/ch22.htm