Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

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Rr6
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Rr6 »

BardoXV wrote:you may believe as you like but there is no evidence to prove either idea, but it is more reasonable to assume that the expansion is uniform in all directions, thus the universe is more spherical than not.
I do indeed believe as I like, as all humans do.

Spherical is not a perfect sphere. I previously stated that Universe is not a perfect sphere. A perfect sphere only exists as a metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept.

A undulating lumpy Universe can have sphericity. Here is link to Greg Egan graphic of undulating surface, that conveys this lumpy idea I've espoused for many years now.

http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.a ... CHILD.html

There is no evidence for, or against any specific shape of our finite, occupied space Universe, that I'm aware of.

Since I believe, that, our finite, occupied space Universe, is composed of dynamically operational tori at ultra-micro scales of Space ( ) - Time ^v - Space )( existence, it follows, that, there will exist some degree of undulating lumpiness at many differrent frequencies.

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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Frewah
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Frewah »

There was no ’place’ where the Big Bang occured. The Big Bang created time and space. I think the mistake people make is to think of the Big Band as some kind of explosion *in* space which isn’t what the theory says. It is a difficult idea to grasp, we like to think there was some kind of enclosure. I think it may help to do a thought experiment where you reverse time. Anything and everything would end up in an infinitesimal singularity. So, you can’t point in any particular direction and say that the Big Bang happened in that direction. All of your atoms, or their constituent parts, were once in that singularity.
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Frewah wrote: November 2nd, 2018, 7:32 pm There was no ’place’ where the Big Bang occured. The Big Bang created time and space. I think the mistake people make is to think of the Big Band as some kind of explosion *in* space which isn’t what the theory says. It is a difficult idea to grasp, we like to think there was some kind of enclosure. I think it may help to do a thought experiment where you reverse time. Anything and everything would end up in an infinitesimal singularity. So, you can’t point in any particular direction and say that the Big Bang happened in that direction. All of your atoms, or their constituent parts, were once in that singularity.
This might be true IF there is only one universe - But many physicists now believe in the multiverse
- Many universes.

IF this is true - Then indeed it might be possible to find a place where this universe, the one you are living in,
occured originally - The so called singularity that occured here may have occurred at a different time
and place from the place where the other universes began.

Of course even if this hypothesis is true it would still be difficult to find the place {or time} where this
universe happened in relation to the others as you would have step outside of all existence
- For now I can not imagine how you would step outside of existence - Still if a multiverse exists
a relative place may be determinable.
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Raymond »

Once you see it it's simple. Imagine two infinite 4D spaces separated by a thin wormhole. That thin singularity is where the 3D universe inflates, bangs, into existence. Two of them, one on each side. These accelerate away to infinity, which sets the stage for a new bang to occur. Two 3D universes bang, inflate, into existence periodically, like eternally recurring divine 3D double ejaculations on an eternal and infinite divine 4D erect. Pushing the virtual into the real, existence. The virtual particles fluctuating in time inflating into unidirectional real thermodynamic (entropic) time.
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD »

UniversalAlien wrote: January 1st, 2016, 10:10 am Assuming you believe in the 'Big Bang' as the starting point of the Universe - the question might be asked as to where this happened? Since supposedly the Universe begins with the Big Bang and all time and space also would so begin, where is the place where it happened? - But if there was no time or space there also was no place - no place where such an event could occur.

The Big Bang could not have occurred unless there was a place for it to occur. Hence, the Big Bang could not represent the beginning of the Universe. Therefor the next conclusion to be drawn is the Universe could not have had a beginning since there was no place for the beginning to occur - Existence and the Universe always existed for if there was ever a point of non-existence existence could never have occurred.

Hey Universal Alien,

Your logic is flawless, and I do completely agree with you, my dear Cosmic Alien brother.

Let me put it this way.

Clearly, some pretty damn massive explosion must have happened not too far from our Galaxy Cluster.

It could have been a terrorist attack perpetrated by Alien terrorists from a near-by parallel universe.


Dr. Bernardo Kastrup — Materialism is baloney!!! :D
Youtube. com/watch?v=FcPyTgLILqA

Dr. Jonathan Österman, Ph.D., ETH Zürich, Switzerland

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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD »


In addition to the very important question of WHERE did the Big Bang occur, there is an equally very important naturally associated question of WHEN did the Big Bang occur:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19190


First, please let me clarify what I mean by WHEN.

What I mean by WHEN is not the "when" as seen from our resultant side of the Bang.

What I mean by WHEN is the "when" as seen from the causal side of the Bang.

Like the Atomic Bomb that exploded over Hiroshima
on the particular day and at the particular time, the Big Bang waited
patiently (how long?) until that faithful Tuesday morning,
when God pressed the Red Button, or simply lighted up the fuse.

The above constitutes a scientific PROOF that the Big Bang
must have been carefully planned and executed with much precision
by a lone intelligent Creator God, because everything went off perfectly,
without a single smallest hitch, at the very first attempt.

Praise the Lord! AMEN.


P. s.


It was NOT a conspiracy. It was a lone Creator God only.




Dr. Bernardo Kastrup — Materialism is baloney!!! :D
Youtube. com/watch?v=FcPyTgLILqA

Dr. Jonathan Österman, Ph.D., ETH Zürich, Switzerland

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 18th, 2023, 11:51 am
In addition to the very important question of WHERE did the Big Bang occur, there is an equally very important naturally associated question of WHEN did the Big Bang occur:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=19190


First, please let me clarify what I mean by WHEN.

What I mean by WHEN is not the "when" as seen from our resultant side of the Bang.

What I mean by WHEN is the "when" as seen from the causal side of the Bang.

Like the Atomic Bomb that exploded over Hiroshima
on the particular day and at the particular time, the Big Bang waited
patiently (how long?) until that faithful Tuesday morning,
when God pressed the Red Button, or simply lighted up the fuse.

The above constitutes a scientific PROOF that the Big Bang
must have been carefully planned and executed with much precision
by a lone intelligent Creator God, because everything went off perfectly,
without a single smallest hitch, at the very first attempt.

Praise the Lord! AMEN.


P. s.


It was NOT a conspiracy. It was a lone Creator God only.
Really :?: :arrow:

Or to use the old hipster slang 'where are you at' or 'where are you coming from' :?:

You say:
The above constitutes a scientific PROOF that the Big Bang
must have been carefully planned and executed with much precision
by a lone intelligent Creator God, because everything went off perfectly,
without a single smallest hitch, at the very first attempt.
Praise the Lord! AMEN.

P. s.

It was NOT a conspiracy. It was a lone Creator God only.

So the current conflct in the Middle East between Israel and Palestine is just the way it is supposed to be :?:
:arrow: Similar to the conflicts that went on in the Old Testament of the Bible over 5000 years ago :?:
Praise the Lord! AMEN.
:?:


As Bob Dylan said in one of his classic folk songs "Masters of War"

"Even Jesus would not forgive what you do" :!:

I don't hold too much faith or belief in 'Western Religions'

But on one thing Jesus and I agree :arrow: And that is to hold hypocrites in disdain :idea:
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Lagayscienza »

It's hard to say anything sensible on questions such as, Where did the Big Bang happen? Theoretical physicists might have a handle on it, but I doubt that most of the rest of us do. At least, I know don't, and so here I will speak only for myself. However, against the incomprehensibility of theoretical physics, science, in as much as I can understand it, seems to tell a believable story about the universe. And science works. It's the reason we can land rovers on Mars, how we know about quarks, and why I can sit here typing this and that others on the other side of the planet can almost instantly read it. Other so called "ways of knowing" don't seem to explain anything to me. Therefore, when someone tells me that their religion's god explains the Big Bang, or that they have meditated their way to an understanding of the ground of being underlying the cosmos, I think, BS!, because that is even less comprehensible to me than theoretical physics.

I hope that, some day, physicists will be able to come up with explanations that we can all understand and accept. Or maybe there can be a marriage of physics and mysticism that is not as laughable as all attempts heretofore. I put Ken Wilbur down in the 1990's. Now, in the 2020s I'm reading Bernardo Kastrup's Analytic Idealism. He has, apparently, attracted quite a following. However, his notion of pure universal consciousness just doesn't do it for me. It's a form of idealism that does away with the physical universe entirely. It, and we, are just excitations in an all pervasive, universal pure consciousness which Kastrup says is impossible to perceive or even imagine. Yet he thinks it must exist as a transcendent object because, if it didn't, his idealist system would be incoherent. Is this serious metaphysics? The more I read, the more it sounds like mysticism - just Ken Wilbur redux. That's how it seems to me, anyway. So, it's back to Kant and Husserl and Transcendental Idealism. If that fails then it's back into the arms of science for me.
La Gaya Scienza
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I will speak for myself only.

Post by Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD »

Lagayscienza wrote: December 26th, 2023, 11:52 am
... and so here I will speak only for myself.
My dear friend La Gaya Scienza,

Fundamentally and honestly, I always speak for myself only, too.

Every academic scientific materialist Atheist is
an independently thinking sovereign free individual.

Because humans live in societies, they naturally share world-views,
and congregate around their subjectively preferred world-views,
because this way these shared world-views appear to be more objective.

No subjective individual can ever rationally claim any objectivity at all.
Had there been such things as "objective facts", we would have all
gladly agreed upon them by now, more than once. :D

We all have free will, and we choose what subjectively and naturally appeals to us.
If you happen to believe that humans have no free will, then
I don't see much sense in engaging in any debates. :D

So, I am grateful to you, my dear friend La Gaya Scienza,
for sharing with me and with us all, your valuable understanding,
or lack thereof, because saying: I don't know, is honestly expressing
our commonly shared essential human condition of both,
the Theists and the Atheists, whereby only true scientists know
how much they don't know yet.

As to Dr. Bernardo Kastrup's Youtube celebrity status,
he is an innocent and well-meaning propagandist,
like the rest of us on this forum. :D

True great self-skeptical philosophers, who openly acknowledge
inherent limits of human intellect to conceive of what reality
might ultimately possibly be, are very rare. One such example
is Kurt Gödel and his two Incompleteness Theorems :

www. quantumantigravity.wordpress. com/up/


All science and technology is essentially all about,
is what we can directly see in front of our noses only,
in order to understand it a bit better, and make it practically useful.

The Big Bang, abiogenesis, and Darwinian Evolution,
are prime examples of meta-physical speculations only,
because they are not experimentally testable, and therefore
they are not properly scientifically falsifiable.

We simply can't directly see the Big Bang via the James Webb Telescope,
nor we can put the Big Bang under a microscope.
We will never know what might have happened, in detail,
a mere 250,000 years ago, and so much less four billion years ago,
because it simply is scientifically impossible.

And now, my dear friend La Gaya Scienza,
I will let you in on the scientific materialistic secret,
that not even many physicists clearly realize, or want to realize.

Up until the time of modern quantum physics' origins
in the early XX century, the old non-modern classical physics
had experimentally verified what some ancient Greek philosophers
postulated, namely that matter is made of atoms.
This was really a Big Deal, in my humble opinion.

The modern quantum physics went even further,
and experimentally verified that atoms are made of sub-atomic
quantum particles, like electrons, protons, and neutrons,
and that energy is made of photons.

My dear friend La Gaya Scienza, in scientific materialism,
and in physics, everything that really exists is physical only,
and all real physical "stuff" must be made of something else,
which also must be physical, by definition.

Unfortunately, no physical thing could possibly be made of itself. :D

It would be like saying that an atom is made of "atom",
whatever that means. We could equally well say that apples
are made of "apple", and oranges are made of "orange",
and that would be a natural end to any further scientific inquiry.
You know, reality is what it is, what everyone sees around,
and it is clearly real, and it really happens the way we really see it happening.
End of the story. :D

In Western materialistic science, there is no such thing
as "something" physical, which is made of nothing,
because the "nothing" does not physically exist, by definition.

There is no such thing as the experimental physics of the Nothing.
Nobody would ever pay you a salary for scientifically researching the Nothing,
because it would be much ado about nothing. :D

So, coming back to our little scientific secret, the most intelligent
quantum physicists, after experimentally discovering the physical
existence of sub-atomic quantum particles of matter and energy,
like electrons, protons, neutrons, and photons, naturally asked themselves
this simple and obvious question : WHAT IS A PARTICLE ?
because in the Western modern science it is not enough to experimentally
discover "something" physical, and simply name it.

So, my dear friend La Gaya Scienza, what do you think
was the honest scientific answer to this very important
crucial scientific question of absolutely fundamental importance?

If you don't know, please let me know, and I will provide you
with a link to a scientific article which answers this question.

Or, do you simply prefer to keep your head deep in the sand, my friend? :D

Do you want to know the scientific truth, or do you want
to preach scientific materialism to others on this forum,
as if it were some obvious objective fact ?


Dr. Bernardo Kastrup — Materialism is baloney!!! :D
Youtube. com/watch?v=FcPyTgLILqA

Dr. Jonathan Österman, Ph.D., ETH Zürich, Switzerland

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Lagayscienza
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Lagayscienza »

Thanks for that.

I agree that there are problems with Metaphysical realism and that for some questions there may never be answers. I can live with that. If the most we can say is that it looks like something like the Big Bang happened about 14 billion years ago, then I can accept that. I don't need to fill the explanatory gap with mysticism.

I agree that as subjective beings we cannot hope for complete objectivity. So, some form of idealism seems to work best. I don't think we can deny the existence of matter, even if we cannot know what it is in itself. Therefore, Transcendental Idealism seems like a happy medium. It at least leaves us a physical universe even whilst acknowledging that we cannot say what the things we see in the universe are in themselves. I'm ok with that. I'm suspicious of overarching mystical frameworks that purport to explain everything. They explain everything and nothing.
La Gaya Scienza
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Re: Where did the 'Big Bang' occur?

Post by Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD »

Lagayscienza wrote: December 26th, 2023, 10:35 pm Thanks for that.

I agree that there are problems with Metaphysical realism and that for some questions there may never be answers. I can live with that. If the most we can say is that it looks like something like the Big Bang happened about 14 billion years ago, then I can accept that. I don't need to fill the explanatory gap with mysticism.

I agree that as subjective beings we cannot hope for complete objectivity. So, some form of idealism seems to work best. I don't think we can deny the existence of matter, even if we cannot know what it is in itself. Therefore, Transcendental Idealism seems like a happy medium. It at least leaves us a physical universe even whilst acknowledging that we cannot say what the things we see in the universe are in themselves. I'm ok with that. I'm suspicious of overarching mystical frameworks that purport to explain everything.

They explain everything and nothing.
My dear friend La Gaya Scienza,

Thank you very much, indeed, for being honest with me.
I do appreciate it very much.

I would like to inform you, with all due respect,
that I simply have nothing more to tell you.

I will stop trolling you, and I will leave you alone. :D

Since you were kind enough to be honest with me,
I hope that you would also like to be honest with Here-And-Now,
and tell him that you don't need his phenomenology to fill
the explanatory gaps in scientific materialism, and that even though he explained
almost everything to you, at the same time he explained nothing,
because you are satisfied enough with the idea of Big Bang and Darwinian Evolution.

Did I get the above correct enough, my dear friend La Gaya Scienza ?

I see no problem with our peaceful and respectful co-existence from now on. :D

We agree to respectfully disagree, like real Gentlemen that we are.

Happy New Year 2024 to you and to all your family!

From the bottom of my heart I wish for you only to be happy
and glad in your life, and I hope that you have accepted my two apologies.


Dr. Bernardo Kastrup — Materialism is baloney!!! :D
Youtube. com/watch?v=FcPyTgLILqA

Dr. Jonathan Österman, Ph.D., ETH Zürich, Switzerland

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Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD
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Ken Wilbur BS, Kastrup BS, Phenomenology BS, etc...

Post by Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD »

Lagayscienza wrote: December 26th, 2023, 11:52 am It's hard to say anything sensible on questions such as, Where did the Big Bang happen? Theoretical physicists might have a handle on it, but I doubt that most of the rest of us do. At least, I know don't, and so here I will speak only for myself. However, against the incomprehensibility of theoretical physics, science, in as much as I can understand it, seems to tell a believable story about the universe. And science works! :D It's the reason we can land rovers on Mars, how we know about quarks, and why I can sit here typing this and that others on the other side of the planet can almost instantly read it. Other so called "ways of knowing" don't seem to explain anything to me. Therefore, when someone tells me that their religion's god explains the Big Bang, or that they have meditated their way to an understanding of the ground of being underlying the cosmos, I think, BS!, :D because that is even less comprehensible to me than theoretical physics.

I hope that, some day, physicists will be able to come up with explanations that we can all understand and accept. Or maybe there can be a marriage of physics and mysticism that is not as laughable as all attempts heretofore. I put Ken Wilbur down in the 1990's. Now, in the 2020s I'm reading Bernardo Kastrup's Analytic Idealism. He has, apparently, attracted quite a following. However, his notion of pure universal consciousness just doesn't do it for me. It's a form of idealism that does away with the physical universe entirely. It, and we, are just excitations in an all pervasive, universal pure consciousness which Kastrup says is impossible to perceive or even imagine. Yet he thinks it must exist as a transcendent object because, if it didn't, his idealist system would be incoherent. Is this serious metaphysics? :D The more I read, the more it sounds like mysticism - just Ken Wilbur redux. That's how it seems to me, anyway. So, it's back to Kant and Husserl and Transcendental Idealism. If that fails then it's back into the arms of science for me.

My dear friend La Gaya Scienza,

Would you agree with me that no amount of Ken Wilbur BS, Analytic Idealism BS, Phenomenology BS, and Transcendental Mysticism BS would ever land a rover on Mars ?

The objective fact is, that In the recorded history of mankind, no religion, and no God, has ever produced neither a single scientific discovery, nor any useful modern and advanced technology, like computers and internet.

All this largely incoherent laughable Kastrup BS is impossible to perceive or even to imagine, by his own admission, not even under an electron microscope. Neither Kastrup & Ken Wilbur, nor God, will ever land anything on Mars.

Ken Wilbur, Kastrup, God, and Mysticism, are all laughable useless BS,
other than functioning as the opium for the masses. :D

How much money could you possibly expect to make from practical applications
of all the above mentioned laughable BS ?

ZERO, which means no food on the table! :D
Who would take all this laughable incoherent BS seriously ?


Dr. Bernardo Kastrup — Materialism is baloney!!! :D
Youtube. com/watch?v=FcPyTgLILqA

Dr. Jonathan Österman, Ph.D., ETH Zürich, Switzerland

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