Autism

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Felix
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Re: Autism

Post by Felix » June 9th, 2016, 2:51 pm

Sounds like a beautiful person, you'd think one of the many "friends" you mentioned would have found him a home to live in.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Aristocles
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Re: Autism

Post by Aristocles » June 9th, 2016, 7:12 pm

Felix wrote:Sounds like a beautiful person, you'd think one of the many "friends" you mentioned would have found him a home to live in.
Yes, we all wish the world worked that way more often. Most people I knew, that would take him, had long since moved far away. Joe did not travel much at all out of the county, ever. I do believe he was in and out of some places. Joe had his way and it was interesting. He had a pleasant harmlessness about him, but he also was stuck in his ways, ways most could not tolerate long, even his own family. His story is rather tragic in a way, inspiring in another, I told it as a case in point that we may all take something from, and mostly because he was on my mind in regards to the topic.

Perhaps, the story could facilitate better answers to perceptions of the disorder, spectrum, politics, scientific overview, etc...

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Felix
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Re: Autism

Post by Felix » June 9th, 2016, 10:47 pm

Aristocles: "but he also was stuck in his ways"

Would you say that this character trait tends to be more common in autistic people than in non-autistic folks? In my limited experience it seems to be so.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Aristocles
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Re: Autism

Post by Aristocles » June 9th, 2016, 10:55 pm

Felix wrote:Aristocles: "but he also was stuck in his ways"

Would you say that this character trait tends to be more common in autistic people than in non-autistic folks? In my limited experience it seems to be so.
Yes. However, I want to be just as quick to suggest all are caught up in ways. In the case of the presumed non-autistic, we may be quick to disassociate and prevent more productive associating. That is one of the themes I wanted to touch upon in the story, the science of our judging personalities.

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Zayl
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Re: Autism

Post by Zayl » June 10th, 2016, 2:12 pm

Simplyhuman wrote:I am a father of 6. However, 3 of my boys have been diagnosed with autism. They have all been diagnosed multiple times by multiple doctors. Mainly because every time the school or insurance company is asked to provide services, they need to retest in order to justify spending any amount of money. Every time they leave with a diagnosis of aspergers or autism, which are now considered the same thing.

However, all 3 boys are completely different. They have their own ways about them.

One is a true genius, but he can't stand writing with a pencil. The scratching of the pencil on paper drives him into pure rage. However, the school won't let him write with a pen. So he turns in blank paperwork every day. Yet time and time again the administration says, "he is above grade level and could skip a grade or two... If only he would turn in class work."

Another is almost non verbal. Silent for 90% of the day. He usually communicates by pretending to be a cat and "meowing" in certain tones to get his point across. (Or hissing to show he's upset)

Another boy is never quiet. Constantly making noises, he can't stop himself from making some sort of noise at all times.

There are thousands of ways they are completely different from one another. I won't rant further on that. But with every one of them being so different, how can they have the same diagnosis? The autism spectrum is so vast and huge that it seems almost anyone could qualify as having an autism spectrum disorder. In their little autism community groups, every child is different in their own way. This has led me to the following conclusion:

Autism spectrum disorder is not real. It is an umbrella term and a way for to professionals to attach a diagnosis code to insurance paperwork. The truth is all of these kids need some assistance to make it in today's society, but we don't yet know how or why. To me the word autism is a throw away diagnosis. It means that the individual may not react in a neuro-typical way to situations. But how and why, are unique to each individual.

Partly a hoax, partly the fact that medical science needs a name for behaviors that they don't yet fully understand.
Your argument is like saying that humans aren't humans despite having the same brain because each have different personalities. Obviously it is not a valid argument.

Yes even people with autism can have different personalities and behave in opposite ways.

However they are all a bit different. I recall seeing a youtube video (cant find it again) explaining autism as follows: First we have women who are very emotional. Then we have men who is less emotional. Men are less emotional because the emotional parts of the brain is killed off (while in their moms womb) to focus more on logic i suppose. Then autists are even less emotional in the same way. So from this point of view autists are to men, as men are to women.

Having less capacity for emotional interpretations will cause difficulties which are different for each individual. It will cause different problems for different people. This is how it is possible that for example your children express different behaviors due to the same cause.

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Atreyu
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Re: Autism

Post by Atreyu » June 10th, 2016, 9:50 pm

Zayl wrote:Your argument is like saying that humans aren't humans despite having the same brain because each have different personalities. Obviously it is not a valid argument.

Yes even people with autism can have different personalities and behave in opposite ways.

However they are all a bit different. I recall seeing a youtube video (cant find it again) explaining autism as follows: First we have women who are very emotional. Then we have men who is less emotional. Men are less emotional because the emotional parts of the brain is killed off (while in their moms womb) to focus more on logic i suppose. Then autists are even less emotional in the same way. So from this point of view autists are to men, as men are to women.

Having less capacity for emotional interpretations will cause difficulties which are different for each individual. It will cause different problems for different people. This is how it is possible that for example your children express different behaviors due to the same cause.
His whole point is that the cause is not known, which it isn't, and that 'autism' is simply a label they use for a wide variety of behaviors so that they can get paid for 'helping' to solve the problem.

And he's right on. 'Autism' obviously is not a cause, and therefore, not a true diagnosis. It's simply a label made for convenience....

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Zayl
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Re: Autism

Post by Zayl » June 11th, 2016, 3:44 am

Atreyu wrote:
Zayl wrote:Your argument is like saying that humans aren't humans despite having the same brain because each have different personalities. Obviously it is not a valid argument.

Yes even people with autism can have different personalities and behave in opposite ways.

However they are all a bit different. I recall seeing a youtube video (cant find it again) explaining autism as follows: First we have women who are very emotional. Then we have men who is less emotional. Men are less emotional because the emotional parts of the brain is killed off (while in their moms womb) to focus more on logic i suppose. Then autists are even less emotional in the same way. So from this point of view autists are to men, as men are to women.

Having less capacity for emotional interpretations will cause difficulties which are different for each individual. It will cause different problems for different people. This is how it is possible that for example your children express different behaviors due to the same cause.
His whole point is that the cause is not known, which it isn't, and that 'autism' is simply a label they use for a wide variety of behaviors so that they can get paid for 'helping' to solve the problem.

And he's right on. 'Autism' obviously is not a cause, and therefore, not a true diagnosis. It's simply a label made for convenience....
That's not true, it is believed to be a change in the behavior of the genes.

What you're saying is basically that the laws of physics don't explain cause and effect because they don't explain the most fundamental or ontological way of how cause and effect occurs.

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Aristocles
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Re: Autism

Post by Aristocles » June 11th, 2016, 7:26 am

Zayl wrote:
Atreyu wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


His whole point is that the cause is not known, which it isn't, and that 'autism' is simply a label they use for a wide variety of behaviors so that they can get paid for 'helping' to solve the problem.

And he's right on. 'Autism' obviously is not a cause, and therefore, not a true diagnosis. It's simply a label made for convenience....
That's not true, it is believed to be a change in the behavior of the genes.

What you're saying is basically that the laws of physics don't explain cause and effect because they don't explain the most fundamental or ontological way of how cause and effect occurs.
We make simplified models. Autism is a form of simplified behavior model. A belief in the change in behavior of genes is a model. Roughly 15% of simplified autism models are associated with some genetically believed abnormality. These simplified models leave much room for manipulation, especially where money is involved.

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Felix
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Re: Autism

Post by Felix » June 11th, 2016, 2:06 pm

What you're saying is basically that the laws of physics don't explain cause and effect
Quite correct, they do not explain it, just describe it, the map is not the territory. Problems arise when people mistake the former for the latter, which unfortunately happens constantly, particularly in human interactions.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Atreyu
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Re: Autism

Post by Atreyu » June 11th, 2016, 8:17 pm

Zayl wrote:That's not true, it is believed to be a change in the behavior of the genes.
It is true, because belief is not knowing.
Zayl wrote: What you're saying is basically that the laws of physics don't explain cause and effect because they don't explain the most fundamental or ontological way of how cause and effect occurs.
Exactly. But this is the same as simply saying they can't explain it....

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PhiloJ
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Re: Autism

Post by PhiloJ » June 17th, 2016, 1:11 am

To Simplyhuman


Sorry but this text may be driven a little by emotions.

You probably already know this, but I will write this to you anyway, and read this as an unprofessional guide on what to do, and what not.

The environment many autistic people (like me) thrive in the most, is an understanding, patient, and guiding environment.

(This is what some "experts" do, in my experience)

The mistake some "experts" make on purpose or not, is that they try to "fix" the problems by judging, and telling them that they shouldn't that, and that, without telling them how they can do better, and why.
And when they fail even though they tried, they get told that they didn't try good enough.

Expecting that they can solve their problems simply by telling them that they have problems, and that they are doing things wrong, is a bad idea, but I see "experts" do it anyway.

It's best to find out how to solve the problems together, instead of leaving the problems for them to solve alone.
Sadly if you're unlucky, you will have to do this without help from real experts.

And I wish you good luck.

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