Can an electron be identified?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Can an electron be identified?

Post by Belindi »

Consul wrote in answer to a question from me about natural classes:
"Among all the countless things and classes that there are, most are miscellaneous, gerrymandered, ill-demarcated. Only an elite minority are carved at the joints, so that their boundaries are established by objective sameness and difference in nature."

(Lewis, David. "Putnam's Paradox." 1984. Reprinted in Papers in Metaphysics and Epistemology, 56-77. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1999. p. 65)

That is, natural (non-conventional) classes are identifiable in terms of (observable) objective resemblances or similarities between things. But since there are different degrees of resemblance or similarity, with things being more or less similar to each other, there are also different degrees of naturalness: not all natural classes are equally natural; some are more or less natural than others, with some being perfectly natural and others being imperfectly natural. A perfectly natural class is one whose members are qualitatively identical, i.e. (intrinsically) indistinguishable duplicates, such as the class of electrons: every electron is perfectly similar to any other electron. The classes of elementary particles and the ones of chemical elements are perfectly natural.
Regarding the last sentence, if any electron E can have a locus assigned to it such that it can't occupy the same space at the same time as another electron E2 then it's not identical with E2.

This ontology is different from the ontology of minds and bodies. Minds and bodies do occupy the same space and time as each other because they are two aspects (perspectives) of the same. But multiple electrons aren't different aspects of the same are they?
User avatar
-1-
Posts: 878
Joined: December 1st, 2016, 2:23 am

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by -1- »

Belindi wrote: Minds and bodies do occupy the same space and time as each other because they are two aspects (perspectives) of the same.
I don't think minds occupy space at all. Do they?

I don't know anything about electrons, however. My uncle used to have one, I think.
This search engine is powered by Hunger, Thirst, and a desperate need to Mate.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by Felix »

Belindi: Regarding the last sentence, if any electron E can have a locus assigned to it...
The electron is a theoretical construct, you may as well ask for the precise spacial location of a numeral.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
User avatar
-1-
Posts: 878
Joined: December 1st, 2016, 2:23 am

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by -1- »

It's a theoretical construct to us, but different from a numeral, because a numeral is truly a work of the human mind, but an electron has physical characteristics.

It's easiest to visualize it as a little goldish-coloured tiny ball, that spins around its own axis and revolves around a nucleus of an atom in wonderful patterns, so fast, that all you can see is a dust-like fog, and you can never catch the electron in any given spot, because by that time it's somewhere else... and only a prob'lity of its existence is available to man as to its location.

But I digressed. An electron is more than a mere number or numeral... it has weight, speed, momentum, energy, colour and a favourite football team.
This search engine is powered by Hunger, Thirst, and a desperate need to Mate.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by Felix »

it has weight, speed, momentum, energy, colour and a favourite football team.
All hypothetical though, especially the fave sports team - at least until we see one of them wearing a teeny-tiny sports jersey.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
User avatar
-1-
Posts: 878
Joined: December 1st, 2016, 2:23 am

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by -1- »

Felix wrote:
it has weight, speed, momentum, energy, colour and a favourite football team.
All hypothetical though, especially the fave sports team - at least until we see one of them wearing a teeny-tiny sports jersey.
Not quite. Hypothetical thought is a thought that makes sense, but there is no extant evidence of any sort to support its truth.

A theory or so-called fact is a hypothetical thought that has supporting evidence.

Truth and proof do not exist in physics or in the sciences. If you are looking for truth or proof, you need to examine the question from a philosophical perspective or from a faith-based perspective.

Saying that electrons do not exist despite their possessing physical properties and they are only hypothetical beings is saying you and I don't exist, but we are only hypothetical, as you and I can't be measured or observed directly, we can only know we probably exist because we have a body, a mass, opinions, colour of hair or eyes, etc. (*) Favourite football team was an exaggeration, I admit. That part WAS truly hypothetical. Or not even that.

Common language does treat all hypothetical objects (in this sense) as if they were fact. The language would be at fault? No, language is a convention, not a manifestation of truth.

We can redefine everything as hypothetical, if we take your strict meaning of the word and a strict application of it, and then due to language, we'll have to finally redefine "hypothetical"as "commonly accepted as probable truth".

What I am saying is that you are basically right when you say in the strictest sense that electrons are hypothetical; but then again, so is everything else. You must be fair, equitable and consistent if you are so strict about one particular manifestation of matter, you must apply the same strictness to everything else, and then banggg, if you do that, all reality disappears. Which is highly impractical, if anything.
This search engine is powered by Hunger, Thirst, and a desperate need to Mate.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by Sy Borg »

Belindi wrote:Consul wrote in answer to a question from me about natural classes:
"Among all the countless things and classes that there are, most are miscellaneous, gerrymandered, ill-demarcated. Only an elite minority are carved at the joints, so that their boundaries are established by objective sameness and difference in nature."

(Lewis, David. "Putnam's Paradox." 1984. Reprinted in Papers in Metaphysics and Epistemology, 56-77. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1999. p. 65)

That is, natural (non-conventional) classes are identifiable in terms of (observable) objective resemblances or similarities between things. But since there are different degrees of resemblance or similarity, with things being more or less similar to each other, there are also different degrees of naturalness: not all natural classes are equally natural; some are more or less natural than others, with some being perfectly natural and others being imperfectly natural. A perfectly natural class is one whose members are qualitatively identical, i.e. (intrinsically) indistinguishable duplicates, such as the class of electrons: every electron is perfectly similar to any other electron. The classes of elementary particles and the ones of chemical elements are perfectly natural.
Regarding the last sentence, if any electron E can have a locus assigned to it such that it can't occupy the same space at the same time as another electron E2 then it's not identical with E2.

This ontology is different from the ontology of minds and bodies. Minds and bodies do occupy the same space and time as each other because they are two aspects (perspectives) of the same. But multiple electrons aren't different aspects of the same are they?
QM simply doesn't make sense to macroscopic beings so a debate about whether they are real or not seems fair enough.

I don't know. I once made the mistake of wondering why negatively charged electrons aren't immediately sucked into positively charged atomic nuclei through magnetic attraction, never mind the fact that the strong nuclear force at subatomic levels yields similar density in atomic muclei to what gravity achieves in neutron stars.

As I searched for the answer I encountered mention of spin-spin effects, charge distribution, the Schrödinger equation, quantum degeneracy pressure (aka the Pauli exclusion principle), the Dirac equation ... it's enough to make one's head spin like a subatomic particle reportedly do not (instead they do some odd quantum approximate correlate of spinning).

What I have learned is you can't speed or slow an electron's spin(-like activity). Consider two otherwise macroscopic entities in very different environs. They take on aspects on the environment but they are still, say, Belinda and Felix. My "understanding" (said with a laugh) is that if something in the environment changes an electron, then it's not an electron any more; it would become something else.

However, if one applied a Schroedinger equation to my comment (or not) there would be a very good chance that it's entirely wrong :)
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by Belindi »

About three years ago I asked a Physicist who was lecturing if subatomic particles were detectable not only mathematically but also empirically and he said that they were. I would like to believe Consul's explanation but I cannot until I know more about the answer to my question. I am beginning to wonder if questions about physics cannot be answered in everyday language. I have sent for a book about the Standard Model aimed at the almost completely ignorant.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by Felix »

We have mathematically modeled a form of energy we term the electron, but it's not a discrete physical entity that we can capture and examine, that's all I was saying. Belindi implied it was a discrete physical entity. Discrete entities do not display inexplicible nonlocal behaviour, appearing and disappearing like the Cheshire Cat.
About three years ago I asked a Physicist who was lecturing if subatomic particles were detectable not only mathematically but also empirically and he said that they were.
Well, if you call flashing lights in a cloud chamber empirical evidence than I guess so.... but I'm also told that the Cheshire Cat leaves his smile behind whenever he vanishes.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by Belindi »

Felix wrote:We have mathematically modeled a form of energy we term the electron, but it's not a discrete physical entity that we can capture and examine, that's all I was saying. Belindi implied it was a discrete physical entity. Discrete entities do not display inexplicible nonlocal behaviour, appearing and disappearing like the Cheshire Cat.
About three years ago I asked a Physicist who was lecturing if subatomic particles were detectable not only mathematically but also empirically and he said that they were.
Well, if you call flashing lights in a cloud chamber empirical evidence than I guess so.... but I'm also told that the Cheshire Cat leaves his smile behind whenever he vanishes.
So, Felix, are electrons what physicists call "a field"? I can just about imagine what "a field" is in terms of ocean, or atmosphere.
A Poster He or I
Posts: 1104
Joined: March 18th, 2011, 4:57 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Anaximander

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by A Poster He or I »

I notice, Belindi, that no one has attempted a direct answer of your OP's last question, "But multiple electrons aren't different aspects of the same are they?" I'm in agreement with Felix that we are ultimately just talking about mathematical constructs here, but I freely acknowledge that the effects of what we call electricity are a very real part of our empirical experience, and that the "electromagnetic field" is our best model of electricity, and that the "players" on that field are these troublesome electron thingies.

The thing about fields in physics, unlike those in football stadiums, is that they exist in complementarity with their particle "players." There is no field without the presence of the particles, while the behavior of the players is only understandable in terms of the field they produce. In other words, the mere idea of an individual electron is merely a convenient (or more likely obfuscating) extrapolation of the Pauli exclusion principle. There is circumstantial evidence that all of space and time are merely an emergent epiphenomenon of something much more fundamental (I'm referring here to the consequences of the empirical proofs of Bell's Inequality). So our fundamental concepts of extension and duration are in some sense unreal. The would bode well for an opinion that all electrons are the "same" electron.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by Sy Borg »

A Poster He or I wrote:I notice, Belindi, that no one has attempted a direct answer of your OP's last question
Apart from:
... you can't speed or slow an electron's spin(-like activity). Consider two otherwise macroscopic entities in very different environs. They take on aspects on the environment but they are still, say, Belinda and Felix. My "understanding" (said with a laugh) is that if something in the environment changes an electron, then it's not an electron any more; it would become something else.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by Felix »

Here's an an interesting thread on quora.com re: the reality of electrons: http://ow.ly/ZzMl30aQM6c
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
User avatar
-1-
Posts: 878
Joined: December 1st, 2016, 2:23 am

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by -1- »

Felix wrote:We have mathematically modeled a form of energy we term the electron
This is actually wrong. Electrons are matter, not energy. (You're only right inasmuch as matter is supposed to be convertible to energy, but the two are different.) What we termed electron is the part of a current that helps create work, or store energy, in electricity. It is the MOVING of electrons that makes work, and the DIFFERENCE in charged states that is energy (energy, i.e. a potential that can make work happen.)
Felix wrote: but (electrons are) not a discrete physical entity that we can capture and examine, that's all I was saying. Belindi implied it was a discrete physical entity. Discrete entities do not display inexplicible nonlocal behaviour, appearing and disappearing like the Cheshire Cat.
You are also wrong in this opinion. The facts speak against you, not I. This is not a logically debated thing; much like the existence of a tree is not.
About three years ago I asked a Physicist who was lecturing if subatomic particles were detectable not only mathematically but also empirically and he said that they were.
Felix wrote:Well, if you call flashing lights in a cloud chamber empirical evidence than (then) I guess so.... but I'm also told that the Cheshire Cat leaves his smile behind whenever he vanishes.
Felix, the site's rules prohibit instructing others to go out and educate themselves. I shall therefore hold my peace, but I must insist that at present you mistake QM for MP, and PHY for PHI. I am not even sure if you are committing a fallacy here. Most likely not. You are just saying, and I use this as a model, as a simlle, as a metaphor, not as a fact, "the Earth is not round, it's flat; just look out the window if you don't believe me."

Is it possible for you to "upgrade" your weltanschauung, or world view? I don't know. It is not my job to help you decide that. All I know is that at the moment you are debating completely factual scientific findings, over which the scientific community has consensus and overwhelming evidence, and you are calling the findings out in ways that reflect not a shortcoming in the scientific endeavour of humanity, but a shortcoming of reconciling newly established scientific findings with your world view.
This search engine is powered by Hunger, Thirst, and a desperate need to Mate.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Can an electron be identified?

Post by Felix »

-1- said: All I know is that at the moment you are debating completely factual scientific findings, over which the scientific community has consensus and overwhelming evidence
What is the "completely factual finding on which there is scientific consensus"? That the electron is, as you said, a discrete form of matter? (that is what we are debating). There is certainly no consensus about that, as it displays both particle and wave like properties.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021