Holistic As Apposed To Reductionist Science
-
- Posts: 1021
- Joined: October 13th, 2008, 7:50 am
Holistic As Apposed To Reductionist Science
I think I can see where the holistic approach does have some outstanding insights that reductionism would not be able to deal with. If this is so, I mean if at present our thinking is fragmented what will it mean to be reprogramed by this new science. Will we come closer to whole brain functionality and what will it mean to the extensions of this thinking into the world, culture, industry, interpersonal relationships and indeed the approach to healthcare. Your thinking cannot stay the same perhaps my associates here have a slant or two to help us out in predicting the coming changes.
Edit: Ok, no one is biting on this one, perhaps if it is made clear that this holistic thinking and general systems theory are really one and the same thing. I believe cybernetics is inclusive now in the defination of general systems theory. I am very much the novice myself, so there is no need to feel intimadated.
"The whole is greater than the sum of its parts."
-
- Posts: 1230
- Joined: May 13th, 2008, 9:06 pm
- Location: Here/Now
Re: Holistic As Apposed To Reductionist Science
Sometimes, depending...boagie wrote:"The whole is greater than the sum of its parts."
Sometimes the complete whole = the sum of it's parts,
ie; "the complete Universe being the sum-total of all Conscious Perspectives".
-
- Posts: 1021
- Joined: October 13th, 2008, 7:50 am
Re: Holistic As Apposed To Reductionist Science
Hi Nameless,nameless wrote:Sometimes, depending...boagie wrote:"The whole is greater than the sum of its parts."
Sometimes the complete whole = the sum of it's parts,
ie; "the complete Universe being the sum-total of all Conscious Perspectives".
Are you invisioning a holographic universe, intuitively I would say the above statement is right. From what they tell us presently however our thinking has been structured growing up as we have under this system of reductionist science. So with the introduction of systems science I think it would be fair to say that some restructuring is forth coming in the population. What might be the significance of the introduction of holistic/systems thinking be. I do not think these things are household words as yet, judging from the response to this post. Thanks for the input!
- wanabe
- Posts: 3377
- Joined: November 24th, 2008, 5:12 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Gandhi.
- Location: UBIQUITY
- Contact:
There is so little emphasis on the "arts" because they have no real rules. It really cant be taught, it must be yearned for. Art picks up when science runs out of answers, art goes down the more answers science has.
Art is the question, science is the answer, then art makes a new question, then science answers it and so on...one cycle we shouldn't break
The problem now is that people think they have everything answered. so the quality in art is in decline, the death of the soul, by belligerent ignorance. Please if you have an artistic urge, not for money or prestige, but for the sake of art, your soul, and by extension everyones soul. Please don't fight it, embrace it; your children will thank you.
~~~~~ ~~~~~~
The parts are not equal to the whole in the case of the universe. the parts must work together. No matter how you define the universe, rules, or chaos. The parts working together, is what makes them more than just their parts. All the conscious perspectives are linked; working together.
-
- Posts: 4
- Joined: August 7th, 2009, 3:38 am
A simple example might be the phenomenon of rigidity. Mechanical rigidity can only exist as an emergent property resulting from the interconnectedness of atoms.
My example does a poor job of illustrating reductionism vs emergence, and nature is replete with emergent systems that are mysteriously well ordered AND dynamic. A good read on this subject is Robert Laughlin's "A Different Universe".
-
- Posts: 1021
- Joined: October 13th, 2008, 7:50 am
I am not sure we are on the same wave length right reguarding the formentioned systems thinking though it might be interesting to consider it art form. This new science however is revolutionary and has the potential I think to transform the way we see the world. It was Einstein who stated that one cannot solve the problems of the world with the same thinking that created the problems in the first place. This systems thinking is that new form of thinking which can answer to many of todays problems.
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/cybsysth.html
-
- Posts: 1021
- Joined: October 13th, 2008, 7:50 am
You sound to be much more knowledgable about systems thinking than myself, your further input would be most appreciated. Thanks to for the reference material. I am very much the novice on the topic, it is only recently I had become so struck with its profound implications that I thought, this is something that should be being discussed in the philosophy forum. The number of displines it is now revitalizing is truely amazing, a truely clarifying rational approach.
The below link is for anyone wishing and intro to the topic
http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/resourc ... ?id=183672
-
- Posts: 172
- Joined: July 28th, 2009, 2:37 am
- Location: On a Stairway to Heaven
However, I do hold the idea that as humanity seeks to understand Truth we need to do so by synthesis of all ways of knowing, when I stated this in the past I would say; reason, intuition, logic, emotion and action when all synthesised and working co-operativly lead to the opening of the latent capacity called Insight. The product is greater than the sum of the parts.
Maybe I have to add 'holistic thinking' to the list
-
- Posts: 1021
- Joined: October 13th, 2008, 7:50 am
Sounds wonderful, the whole thing is not unlike holistic thinking or systems thinking. I remember years ago long before I was aware of this, I thought of eveything as overlappiong spheres,overlapping spheres of thought. Nothing arises in isolation so every object or subject is interconnected somehow, this systems thinking makes things much clearer. If you think of it even memory works like this through associations. It is perhaps the most wonderful development to come along in a very long time. I cannot understand why it is not a household word by now.
http://www.systems-thinking.org/
-
- Posts: 3364
- Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm
Taken from Fritz Meier "The Problem of Nature in the Esoteric Monism of Islam"
Whether it be Plato's cave, the Buddhist parable of the Burning House, or this elephant, the problem of our blindness is the same. This is why Jesus' assertion of the need for new eyes and ears seems so absurd to anyone lacking the humility to appreciate our experiential psychological lack of a higher contextThe legend of the Blind Men and the Elephant originated in the Pali Buddhist Udana, which was apparently compiled in the second century b.c.e. It spread to Islam through the work of the orthodox Sufi theologian Muhammad al-Ghazzali (1058-1128 c.e.), in his Theology Revived. Ghazzali refers to the tale in a discussion on the problem of human action, a problem in which the inadequacy of natural reason becomes most evident. This is his version of the fable:
A community of blind men once heard that an extraordinary beast called an elephant had been brought into the country. Since they did not know what it looked like and had never heard its name, they resolved to obtain a picture, and the knowledge they desired, by feeling the beast - the only possibility that was open to them! They went in search of the elephant, and when they had found it, they felt its body. One touched its leg, the other a tusk, the third an ear, and in the belief that they now knew the elephant, they returned home. But when they were questioned by the other blind men, their answers differed. The one who had felt the leg maintained that the elephant was nothing other than a pillar, extremely rough to the touch, and yet strangely soft. The one who had caught hold of the tusk denied this and described the elephant as, hard and smooth, with nothing soft or rough about it, more over the beast was by no means as stout as a pillar, but rather had the shape of a post ['amud]. The third, who had held the ear in his hands, spoke: "By my faith, it is both soft and rough." Thus he agreed with one of the others, but went on to say: Nevertheless, it is neither like a post nor a pillar, but like a broad, thick piece of leather." Each was right in a certain sense, since each of them communicated that part of the elephant he had comprehended, but none was able describe the elephant as it really was; for all three of them were unable to comprehend the entire form of the elephant.
The legend was also used by the Persian poet Sana'i (died probably 545 a.h./1150 c.e.), also as an illustration of the inadequacy of human reason. The great Sufi master Jalal ud-din-i Rumi (1207-1273 c.e.) is another who uses the story; in his Mathnawi. He likens those who cannot agree about the eternally immutable God, those in whom the spiritual eye has not yet awakened, to a group of people who seek an elephant in a dark room, and try to determine its appearance by touch alone. Naturally, each one comes to a different conclusion, according to the part of the animal’s body that they feel.
The elephant was in a dark house; some Hindus had brought it for exhibition.
In order to see it, many people were going, every one, into that darkness.
As seeing it with the eye was impossible, [each one] was feeling it in the dark with the palm of his hand..
The hand of one fell on its trunk; he said: "This creature is like a water-pipe."
The hand of another touched its ear: to him it appeared to be like a fan.
Since another handled its leg, he said: "I found the elephant's shape to be like a pillar."
Another laid his hand on its back: he said, "Truly, this elephant was like a throne."
Similarly, whenever anyone heard [a description of the elephant]. he understood [it only in respect of] the part that he had touched.
On account of the [diverse] place [object] of view, their statements differed: one man titled it "dal ," another "alif."
If there had been a candle in each one's hand, the difference would have gone out of their words.
The Persian mystic and philosopher `Aziz ibn-Muhammad-I Nasafi (7th century a.h./13th century c.e.) was yet another profound thinker who made reference to this parable, this time in the context of criticism of exoteric theologians. According to Nasafi, these theologians have grasped only a part of the object of their study, but claim this part represents the whole. Since the whole consists of different parts, the result is bound to be false and one-sided; and hence each contradicts the others. The battle of theological opinions can only be arbitrated only by one who knows the relation between the parts, that is, the esoteric seer who has preserved or acquired an ability to see the whole. In this context, Nasafi tells the legend [4] of the blind men and the elephant. The blind men symbolize the theologians and exoteric thinkers, the elephant represents God or the truth:
Once there was a city, the inhabitants of which were all blind. They had heard of elephants and were curious to see [sic] one face to face. They were still full of this desire when one day a caravan arrived and camped outside the city. There was an elephant in the caravan. When the inhabitants of the city heard there was an elephant in the caravan, the wisest and most intelligent men of the city decided to go out and see the elephant. A number of them left the city and went to the place where the elephant was. One stretched out his hands, grasped the elephant's ear, and perceived something resembling a shield. This man decided that the elephant looked like a shield. Another stretched out his hands, grasped the elephant's trunk, and perceived something resembling a club ['amud]. This man decided that the elephant looked like a club. A third stretched out his hands, grasped the elephant's leg, and perceived something like a pillar [`imad]. He decided that the elephant looked like a pillar. A fourth stretched his hands, grasped the elephant's back, and perceived something like a seat [takht]. He decided that the elephant looked like a seat. Delighted, they all returned to the city. After e one had gone back to his quarter, the people asked: "Did see the elephant?" Each one answered yes. They asked: "What does he look like? What kind of shape has he?" Then one I in his quarter replied: "The elephant looks like a shield. And the second man in the second quarter: "The elephant looks like a club." The third man in the third quarter: "The elephant looks like a pillar." And the fourth man in fourth quarter: "The elephant looks like a seat." And inhabitants of each quarter formed their opinion in accord; with what they had heard.
Now when the different conceptions came into contact with one another, it became evident that they were contradictory. Each blind man found fault with the next, and began to advance proofs in support of his own view and in confutation of the views of the others. They called these proofs rational and scriptural proofs. One said: "It is written in war the elephant is sent out ahead of the army. Consequently the elephant must be a kind of shield." The second said: "It is written that in war the elephant hurls himself at the hostile army and that the hostile army is thereby shattered. Consequently the elephant must be a kind of club." The said: "It is written that the elephant carries a weight thousand men and more without effort. Consequently the elephant must be a kind of pillar." The fourth said: "It is written that so and so many people can sit in comfort on an elephant. Consequently the elephant must be a kind of seat."
Now you yourself consider whether such proofs they can ever penetrate to the object of demonstrations, the elephant, and whether with such proofs they can ever arrive at the correct conclusion. Every rational man knows that the more proofs of this sort they advance, the farther they will be from knowledge of the elephant they can never arrive at the object of their demonstrations, the elephant, and consequently that the conflict in opinions will never be relieved, hut will become more and more pronounced.
But know this: Suppose by the grace of God one of them is made seeing so that he perceives and knows the elephant as it really is, and says to them: "In what you have said of the elephant, you have indeed grasped some aspect of the elephant, but you do not know the rest. God has given me sight, I have seen and come to know the elephant as it really is." They will not even believe the seeing man, but will say: "You claim that God has given you sight, but that is only your imagination. Your brain is defective, and madness assails you. It is we who are the seeing." Only some few accept the word of the seer, for it is written in the Koran: "But few of my servants are the thankful" [Sura 34:13]. The others persist in their stupidity coupled with arrogance, refuse to be in-structed, and call those among them who hear and accept the word of the seer, and who agree with the seer, unbelievers and heretics. But this only shows that "to hear about a thing is not the same as to see it for yourself."
- wanabe
- Posts: 3377
- Joined: November 24th, 2008, 5:12 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Gandhi.
- Location: UBIQUITY
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 1021
- Joined: October 13th, 2008, 7:50 am
wanabe,wanabe wrote:If one wants new ways to see the world, do not again begin to label it and confine things to name, as we have done before... Todays solutions are tomorrows problems.
While it is true that all words are qualifications and/or limitations how do you suggest we communicate our thinking about these things if not through language?
- wanabe
- Posts: 3377
- Joined: November 24th, 2008, 5:12 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Gandhi.
- Location: UBIQUITY
- Contact:
In short: don't name it, describe it, any way one can.
-
- Posts: 1021
- Joined: October 13th, 2008, 7:50 am
"The dramatic change in concepts and ideas that happened in physics during the first three decades of this century has been widely discussed by physicists and philosophers for more than fifty years...The intellectual crisis of quantum physicists in the 1920's is mirrored today by a similar but much broader cultural crisis. The major problems of our time...are all different facets of one single crisis, which is essentially a crisis of perception...Like the crisis in quantum physics, it derives from the fact that most of us and especially our large social institutions, subscribe to the concepts of an outdated world view...At the same time researchers...are developing a new vision of reality...emerging from modern physics which can be characterized by words like organic, holistic, and ecological. It might also be called a systems view, in the sense of general systems theory. The universe is no longer seen as a machine, made up of a multitude of objects, but has to be pictured as one indivisible dynamic whole whose parts are essentially interrelated and can be understood only as patterns of a cosmic process". What we are seeing today is a shift of paradigms not only within science but also in the larger social arena...The social paradigm now receding had dominated our culture for several hundred years, during which it shaped our modern Western society and has significantly influenced the rest of the world...This paradigm consists of...the view of the world as a mechanical system, the view of the body as a machine...the view of life as a competitive struggle...the belief of unlimited progress achieved through economic and technological growth and the belief that the female is subsumed under the male...During recent decades all these assumptions have been severely limited and in need of radical revision. Indeed, such a revision is now taking place...In science, the language of systems theory. and especially the theory of living systems, seems to provide the most appropriate formulation of the new ecological paradigm.
http://www.newciv.org/ISSS_Primer/seminar.html
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/CommunitySupp ... 1INTR.html
-
- Posts: 3364
- Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm
There is an old Hasidic story about The Devil and his imp friend who were walking down the street one day when they spotted a man who had bent down to pick up a piece of the truth.boagie wrote:Fritjof Capra. 1996. "The Web of Life : A New Scientific Understanding of Living Systems". New York: Anchor Books, Doubleday
"The dramatic change in concepts and ideas that happened in physics during the first three decades of this century has been widely discussed by physicists and philosophers for more than fifty years...The intellectual crisis of quantum physicists in the 1920's is mirrored today by a similar but much broader cultural crisis. The major problems of our time...are all different facets of one single crisis, which is essentially a crisis of perception...Like the crisis in quantum physics, it derives from the fact that most of us and especially our large social institutions, subscribe to the concepts of an outdated world view...At the same time researchers...are developing a new vision of reality...emerging from modern physics which can be characterized by words like organic, holistic, and ecological. It might also be called a systems view, in the sense of general systems theory. The universe is no longer seen as a machine, made up of a multitude of objects, but has to be pictured as one indivisible dynamic whole whose parts are essentially interrelated and can be understood only as patterns of a cosmic process". What we are seeing today is a shift of paradigms not only within science but also in the larger social arena...The social paradigm now receding had dominated our culture for several hundred years, during which it shaped our modern Western society and has significantly influenced the rest of the world...This paradigm consists of...the view of the world as a mechanical system, the view of the body as a machine...the view of life as a competitive struggle...the belief of unlimited progress achieved through economic and technological growth and the belief that the female is subsumed under the male...During recent decades all these assumptions have been severely limited and in need of radical revision. Indeed, such a revision is now taking place...In science, the language of systems theory. and especially the theory of living systems, seems to provide the most appropriate formulation of the new ecological paradigm.
http://www.newciv.org/ISSS_Primer/seminar.html
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/CommunitySupp ... 1INTR.html
The imp was horrified and said that now that the man had found this we will be discovered and it will lead to the end of our reign.
The Devil just smiled at his young friends naivety and told him not to worry. The man may have found a piece of the truth but we will help him organize it.
This is why I'm wary of "revisions." Once they begin being organized, without sufficient understanding to begin with, we just psychologically descend deeper into Plato's cave. Unfortunately there are many without any understanding who will want to be in charge of "revisions."
It is like members of the Jesus Seminar trying to understand Jesus from a secular perspective and offering revisions. Not a clue.
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023