Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

Use this forum to have philosophical discussions about aesthetics and art. What is art? What is beauty? What makes art good? You can also use this forum to discuss philosophy in the arts, namely to discuss the philosophical points in any particular movie, TV show, book or story.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

Post by Obvious Leo »

Londoner wrote:Abortion is wrong' seems to be asserting a fact about the act of abortion.
This was my point. The notion of the moral act makes a universal statement about the nature of morality which reduces it to farce. What about sex before marriage? What about farting in an elevator? Where does this stop?

Regards Leo
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Fitzwilliam75
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Re: Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

Post by Fitzwilliam75 »

Londoner wrote:You say that deeper issues are not very apparent, yet you want to show people that they are there.

Why? Do you feel that because a book is famous, or popular, or on the syllabus, it must contain a discussion of 'controversial themes and issues'?

(I'm afraid that if you post requests for help with essays on philosophy boards, this is the sort of answer you will get!)
Hello. Firstly, I am here to make an introductory post because of the topic, rather than either a great knowledge of philosophy or any deep interest of it beyond the bounds of your average (reasonably intelligent) person. Philosophy-wise, I can quote half a dozen- possibly more- of Omar Khayyam's quatrains, although my copy of the Rubaiyat is always within reach, but that's about it. I am however, an avid ( and quite knowledgeable) fan of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice novel. I refer of course to the book and not the numerous adaptations of it. I have joined, and left, several forums purporting to discuss issues on such only to find somewhat bigoted and very narrow views on what are basically feminist Elizabeth Bennet adoration societies (mainly American, I might add without bias). I was attracted here and have read most of the replies except when they deviated to religious matters which I didn't see as applicable to respond to. So what exactly do we have in Pride and Prejudice that needs analysis?

Personally, I choose to view a lady of another era with a somewhat confined view of life, amusing herself by writing a likeable little tale and somewhat ignoring the adage "write about what you know!" I say this only in terms of any mention of love and romance, something seemingly lacking in her own life, but then again, to view Pride and Prejudice as a love story is, in my view, naive to say the least. ( I hear a million boos and hisses from Mr Darcy devotees between the ages of thirteen and seventy-nine, but choose to believe that there are enough sensible women to balance the scale). The book is almost a socially-based Georgian version of our English, long-running radio programme, "The Archers, an everyday story of country-folk " The intriguing part is that it was written partly by candlelight with a quill and ink a touch over two-hundred years ago as a rendition of those times. The first question then, is what applies now, that also did then, that accounts for the popularity the book still enjoys? So much has changed in that time that there has to be something more than romantic imagination ( although I must state, in fairness, that I don't believe in dictating how people should read the book or what they take from it. In that, take whatever pleasure one can) and there must be issues more than just happy endings that ring the right bells.

Hoping the questions are within the forum framework, that will do for now.....(-:
Belinda
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Re: Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

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Because I take Elizabeth Bennet to represent the new individuality as contrast to for example her mother's simple attachment to the conventional destiny of ladies of her social standing in England at that time. Mr Darcy might have got stuck in the spirit of the older more traditional times but for the influence of the dashing Liz.

"At that time" there was a perceived need for people to think for themselves so to enable themselves to detach from their old habitats and work patterns and material cultures. Austen was moving into the Romanticism era which followed upon changing technologies and thus changing mores.
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Obvious Leo
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Re: Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

Post by Obvious Leo »

Once committed to print the words of a writer are no longer in the ownership of the writer. They then become the exclusive property of the reader. Therefore I take no issue with whatever revisionist interpretation of Austen's work might appeal to the conceptual taste of any given reader. In my view her work has stood the test of time solely because of her masterly command of our beautiful language and her intended meaning is almost incidental.

From a bumper sticker I saw many years ago..."Just give me the facts. I can put in my own ********."

Regards Leo
Belinda
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Re: Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

Post by Belinda »

Yes Leo, but doesn't one at least try to find objective meanings ?
..."Just give me the facts. I can put in my own ********."

But there are no pure facts they are all adulterated by interpretative frames. Mine is Marxist , for the time being.
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Obvious Leo
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Re: Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

Post by Obvious Leo »

Belinda wrote:Yes Leo, but doesn't one at least try to find objective meanings ?
..."Just give me the facts. I can put in my own ********."
But there are no pure facts they are all adulterated by interpretative frames. Mine is Marxist , for the time being.
I'm not convinced that there's any such thing as an objective meaning in literature. No doubt there's an objective meaning in the intent of the writer but meanings are a movable feast. Surely if Jane was alive today she'd be writing a totally different story?

I'm not comfortable with generic labels to describe my own interpretative frame but I take your point completely. We all have our own way of seeing the world we live in, both how we imagine it is as well as how we imagine it ought to be. We take this baggage into everything we read but the secret is to be aware of it. If we fail in this awareness then all we're doing is confirming our own mindset, like Clive is doing elsewhere. We lock ourselves into a time-warp and miss Socrates' point about living the examined life.

In my view for an opinion to be of any value to us in our own journey of the mind it must always be subject to change in the light of new information. I'm sure you won't disagree.

Regards Leo
Belinda
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Re: Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

Post by Belinda »

Obvious Leo wrote:
In my view for an opinion to be of any value to us in our own journey of the mind it must always be subject to change in the light of new information. I'm sure you won't disagree.

Yes I do I agree. For instance in another thread I have just been trying to present classical Islam as Prophet Muhammad interpreted it; Islam dynamically attuned to societies and individuals in their several variations. Islam is at present mired in degrees of fundamentalism .This stagnation can be ameliorated by Muslims' reverting to the classical Islam of Muhammad where interpretations of God's will are open to enquiry instead of , as now, being closed to Muslims who seem to have no choice but to submit to fundamentalist conservatism.
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Obvious Leo
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Re: Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

Post by Obvious Leo »

Indeed. And it's not only in the religious world that we see this blind adherence to received dogma which twists ideas out of their intended social and temporal context. The gun laws in the US are a good example and I'm sure not even a 21st century self-declared Marxist is suggesting we should revisit the soviet collectives. Ideas are fluid and evolutionary entities which must be allowed to adapt to changing times.

If you recall we had a similar conversation some months ago about ethics and morality. Was Jefferson an immoral man because he was a slave-holder? I say no, but I would be if I were. Was my father an immoral man because in the sixties he felt that a woman's place was in the home. No he wasn't but he would be if he still felt that way today. By the way he's 93 years old and he doesn't think that way today.

Regards Leo
Belinda
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Re: Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

Post by Belinda »

Obvious Leo wrote:
I'm sure not even a 21st century self-declared Marxist is suggesting we should revisit the soviet collectives. Ideas are fluid and evolutionary entities which must be allowed to adapt to changing times.
I'm not that sort of Marxist. I'm the sort of Marxist who thinks that changes in society are founded upon ecomomic needs not ideas which if not outright rationalisations are superstructures.
If you recall we had a similar conversation some months ago about ethics and morality. Was Jefferson an immoral man because he was a slave-holder? I say no, but I would be if I were. Was my father an immoral man because in the sixties he felt that a woman's place was in the home. No he wasn't but he would be if he still felt that way today. By the way he's 93 years old and he doesn't think that way today.
I do have a fixed ethical principle which although culturally conditioned, for me, matters more than relative moralities. I think that individuals should be granted inalienable rights. Any society which denies rights to individuals is a bad society. This means that I think that a lot of societies are bad societies by reason of their bad moralities. I even think that some sovereign states deserve to be influenced aggressively but prudently and carefully short of civilian suffering making a Pyrrhic victory .

Jefferson was not an immoral man, those were the current mores. The transatlantic slave trade was unethical and the current mores of those times and places were unethical. Mores are attached to times and places but in an ideal world ethics are not fixed to times and places. Don't we all like to seek eternal verities despite they never have materialised?

Your father: the apple doesn't fall far from the tree then.
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Obvious Leo
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Re: Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

Post by Obvious Leo »

Belinda wrote: I think that individuals should be granted inalienable rights. Any society which denies rights to individuals is a bad society.
I agree with this notion of inalienable rights but would claim that such an ideal cannot be accommodated within our current conception of the nation state. However that's a very big topic best left for another day and another conversation.
Belinda wrote: Don't we all like to seek eternal verities despite they never have materialised?
There are certainly psychological comforts inherent in the eternal verities and I see them as mostly harmless, as long as we pick our verities carefully. For instance I sacked god at the age of 14 but I was raised in the Christian tradition within an exclusively Christian culture. I claim the right to still proudly call myself a Christian solely on the grounds that I claim to have understood the Christian message. However this claim is not free of interpretative taint either because I was also a child of the counter-culture, complete with all the flowers and peace and love. Maybe I'm not a Christian at all but just an un-reconstructed hippy.

Regards Leo
Belinda
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Re: Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

Post by Belinda »

Applying this tangential stuff to Pride and PrejudiceI think that Jane Austen showed how individualism in judgement should be mixed with tradition and sensibility of feelings .

Younger sister Lydia Bennet lost sight of traditions. Mary Bennet applied tradition without sensibility and judgement. Elizabeth Bennet understood that traditions, sensibilities, and individuals' rights all matter. Mr Darcy needed to learn that( Elizabeth's) reason and judgement with sensibility are sufficient for upward social mobility.
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Obvious Leo
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Re: Analyzing Pride and Prejudice the novel

Post by Obvious Leo »

Belinda wrote:Applying this tangential stuff to Pride and PrejudiceI think that Jane Austen showed how individualism in judgement should be mixed with tradition and sensibility of feelings .

Younger sister Lydia Bennet lost sight of traditions. Mary Bennet applied tradition without sensibility and judgement. Elizabeth Bennet understood that traditions, sensibilities, and individuals' rights all matter. Mr Darcy needed to learn that( Elizabeth's) reason and judgement with sensibility are sufficient for upward social mobility.
Sure. This strikes me as a balanced reading of the story which has a timelessness to it because of its generic quality.

" The difference between fiction and non-fiction is that fiction must always be true"...Mark Twain.
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