Is art and music dying?

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LuckyR
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by LuckyR »

Greta wrote:I guess, though that's an awful blurry line. Bear in mind that "mediocre" and "uninspired" are subjective terms. There are times when I think my own efforts have been inspired and high quality, yet I know other musicians who would consider every single thing I ever played to be mediocre because I'm untrained and have limited scope. Obviously I'd disagree :)

I do get what you're saying, though. A Leunig cartoon nicely described the difference. A husband (sax) and wife (drums) duo were playing at a wedding function and a drunk guest has walked up to the stand and said "Play the Golden Wedding again" ... and the sax player has an expression of browbeaten existential despair and defeat on his face. There you have an example of an artisan. Usually we start playing music with passion and grand dreams of playing fabulous music to informed and appreciative audiences. Then the reality of most white people's painfully dumb music taste hits home :wink: ... but the bills still need to be paid.

A real life example. When I was young and unemployed I picked up a job selling paintings door-to-door. The paintings were mass produced, and if there is one thing that separates art from cynicism it's mass production. For the record, I sold no paintings and lasted one day, most of which I spent being force-fed wine by a nice couple who instantly recognised my plight and tool pity on me :)

-- Updated 05 Feb 2015, 16:18 to add the following --

Sorry or the overuse of emoticons. The devil made me do it!

No worries about the emoticons (or misspelled words for that matter, talk about a Forum Intro bordering on pomposity...)

I would not be self conscious on your playing skills for a couple of reasons. First, to my mind, the difference between artist and artisan is one of circumstance and skillset, not of importance or skill LEVEL.

As an example, if a band of intermediate players tries their hand at a pop hit, their product will be mediocre and they are not artists (as they are artisans). However, if they write and play their own material, they are now artists, even though their skill level has not improved. One can make the argument that although they are only mediocre players in general, they have played their original material in the best possible way (assuming they achieved the sound they wanted).

The perfect example of this (and my original premise) is Louie, Louie by the Kingsmen. Firstly, they did not write the song. Their recording is from an objective perspective, mediocre in the extreme. It is so bad, in fact, that it's defects are part of it's charm and hence artistry. Players of infinitely better skill can and have recorded covers of this song, but will forever be covers only. The original Kingsmen recording is the Standard, true Hall of Fame material. OTOH if the Kingsmen covered anyone else's discography they would be dismissed as hacks.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by Sy Borg »

Greta wrote:I guess, though that's an awful blurry line. Bear in mind that "mediocre" and "uninspired" are subjective terms. There are times when I think my own efforts have been inspired and high quality, yet I know other musicians who would consider every single thing I ever played to be mediocre because I'm untrained and have limited scope. Obviously I'd disagree :)

I do get what you're saying, though. A Leunig cartoon nicely described the difference. A husband (sax) and wife (drums) duo were playing at a wedding function and a drunk guest has walked up to the stand and said "Play the Golden Wedding again" ... and the sax player has an expression of browbeaten existential despair and defeat on his face. There you have an example of an artisan. Usually we start playing music with passion and grand dreams of playing fabulous music to informed and appreciative audiences. Then the reality of most white people's painfully dumb music taste hits home :wink: ... but the bills still need to be paid.

A real life example. When I was young and unemployed I picked up a job selling paintings door-to-door. The paintings were mass produced, and if there is one thing that separates art from cynicism it's mass production. For the record, I sold no paintings and lasted one day, most of which I spent being force-fed wine by a nice couple who instantly recognised my plight and tool pity on me :)
LuckyR wrote:I would not be self conscious on your playing skills for a couple of reasons. First, to my mind, the difference between artist and artisan is one of circumstance and skillset, not of importance or skill LEVEL.

As an example, if a band of intermediate players tries their hand at a pop hit, their product will be mediocre and they are not artists (as they are artisans). However, if they write and play their own material, they are now artists, even though their skill level has not improved. One can make the argument that although they are only mediocre players in general, they have played their original material in the best possible way (assuming they achieved the sound they wanted).

The perfect example of this (and my original premise) is Louie, Louie by the Kingsmen. Firstly, they did not write the song. Their recording is from an objective perspective, mediocre in the extreme. It is so bad, in fact, that it's defects are part of it's charm and hence artistry. Players of infinitely better skill can and have recorded covers of this song, but will forever be covers only. The original Kingsmen recording is the Standard, true Hall of Fame material. OTOH if the Kingsmen covered anyone else's discography they would be dismissed as hacks.
Yes, I think so. Playing covers can be a very mediocre exercise, although when done at a very high level it is artistry in the sense that there can be artistry in everything from science, engineering and business to healthcare, teaching, child care and animal handling.

Naive art does have its appeal to me, although some cannot bear it. One of my favourite so-bad-it's-good recordings is The Shaggs's My Pal Foot Foot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR9d4ESlpHY. It surely doesn't sound like anything else:)

A huge motivation for me these days is freshness. I quickly get bored with mainstream styles, having heard them too often, unless the artists' skills are immaculate or there's an interesting twist.

Re: the thread's focus, this is an interesting article about how the effects of music are, to a limited extent, not culturally specific: themindunleashed.org/2015/02/music-inde ... ludes.html
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Jklint
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by Jklint »

More degrading than dying.
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LuckyR
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by LuckyR »

Jklint wrote:More degrading than dying.

I am sure you are refering to something in particular, what is it?
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by Sy Borg »

This is interesting - the same lick used in multiple songs, solos and genres. Are humans universally hardwired to enjoy certain licks?
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LuckyR
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by LuckyR »

Yes, though that fact is not required to explain the video. Basically there is not an infinite number of ways notes in a short phrase can be put together. The vast majority of the "licks" are completely unmusical and of the small number that are, there are a very few that are so pleasing to the ear, no wonder they get used again and again.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by Sy Borg »

Another cliche that has been done to death to stay within the accepted sweetness range of the Anglo ear is Pachelbel's Canon:
The Anglo western ear tends to be especially uncultivated, perhaps because music is less important in our cultures than many others. In music I find most Anglo people's taste is akin to that of children's taste in food with a strong preference for sweetness. Non sweet melodies are not tolerated well by the general public. If you'd like me to post examples I'm happy to oblige :)
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LuckyR
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by LuckyR »

I for one would like to hear a non-western "lick" as it were that is pleasing elsewhere but not pleasing here in the west.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by Sy Borg »

I don't have the ear to notice small licks repeated like that but I imagine there's be roughly equivalent repeated licks in the musics across Asia.

This was the first album by an artist who made his fortune playing vacuous disco music, in this instance playing music that he loved without restricting himself to common tastes. I wonder how long forum members would last listening to this? :)
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by Harbal »

Greta wrote: This was the first album by an artist who made his fortune playing vacuous disco music,
The only way I could put up with that is if the alternative was Jim Reeves.
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by A Poster He or I »

Are humans universally hardwired to enjoy certain licks?
The vast majority of the "licks" are completely unmusical and of the small number that are, there are a very few that are so pleasing to the ear, no wonder they get used again and again.
I for one would like to hear a non-western "lick" as it were that is pleasing elsewhere but not pleasing here in the west.
I don't have the ear to notice small licks repeated like that but I imagine there's be roughly equivalent repeated licks in the musics across Asia.
These remarks got me thinking about my own appreciation of the ragas of Northern India's classical Hindustani music tradition. A raga per se is a brief melodic phrase which implies a set scale and usually an associated emotional setting, as well as the time of day/night proper to its performance. So a raga per se can be thought of by a Westerner as an elaborate "lick" I suppose. The performance of a given raga is an improvisation upon that lick by a trained musician, analagous in some ways to a jazz band improvising on a set riff. I find it interesting to watch youtube videos of different performers playing the same popular raga to hear if I can recognize that common "lick" amid the vastly different interpretations. I've found I can hear the lick if it's one of my 2 favorites; otherwise I can't hear it.

The performance of Indian classical music involves mastery of microtones called "shrutis" which are a critical component of assessing a musician's talent. The microtones are not part of the raga per se, they are introduced at the discretion of the performer and to Western ears are primarily responsible for the "wailing" melismatic character of Indian music. It is interesting that Westerners like myself who enjoy ragas specifically enjoy these microtonal inflections, while half the Westerners I've met who don't like ragas specifically target these same inflections as problematic. (The other half don't like the droning character of the music, as a raga is not allowed to change its key).
Lambert
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by Lambert »

0laded wrote: I don't want to disrespect Mr Spock, but I don't think art is more emotion than it's perception (and its representation, and the perception of said representation, and so on).

And I ask, isn't Mr Spock logical yet partial, even if he holds all knowledge, for he is a particular recipient?

Whenever perception and mathematic formulae exist, music and art will live.

If only I could hear some quantum music...
Quantum music is undying love.

-- Updated March 14th, 2015, 8:03 am to add the following --
Lambert wrote:
0laded wrote: I don't want to disrespect Mr Spock, but I don't think art is more emotion than it's perception (and its representation, and the perception of said representation, and so on).

And I ask, isn't Mr Spock logical yet partial, even if he holds all knowledge, for he is a particular recipient?

Whenever perception and mathematic formulae exist, music and art will live.

If only I could hear some quantum music...
Quantum music is undying love.
I happen to get a poem in this today:

Deep in the Quiet Wood [by] James Weldon Johnson


Are you bowed down in heart?

Do you but hear the clashing discords and the din of life?

Then come away, come to the peaceful wood,

Here bathe your soul in silence. Listen! Now,

From out the palpitating solitude

Do you not catch, yet faint, elusive strains?

They are above, around, within you, everywhere.

Silently listen! Clear, and still more clear, they come.

They bubble up in rippling notes, and swell in singing tones.

Now let your soul run the whole gamut of the wondrous scale

Until, responsive to the tonic chord,

It touches the diapason of God’s grand cathedral organ,

Filling earth for you with heavenly peace

And holy harmonies.



This is where, as legend has it, a clochard in Paris played the most beautiful music ever heard on the grand organ of the Notre Dame while reading the Rose Window to play his tunes.http://www.notredamedeparis.fr/South-Rose-Window
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Mikel
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by Mikel »

Human beings always have needed ways to express themselves with art and music. I dont think its going to change anytime soon. I can tell you things with my guitar that I could never tell you face to face. Remember that art and music are means of expression, and without them we wouldn't even feel like we were living.
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by Cogito ergo sum »

Mikel wrote:Human beings always have needed ways to express themselves with art and music. I dont think its going to change anytime soon. I can tell you things with my guitar that I could never tell you face to face. Remember that art and music are means of expression, and without them we wouldn't even feel like we were living.



There is nothing you can tell me with your guitar that can't be better expressed with language. I can feel a certain emotion based off of certain patterns of sound frequencies emitted from the strings but that is not what you are saying but what the listener chooses to interpret it as. I would find it shocking of you needed help so you called the cops but instead of telling them the issue you played a guitar solo.

This post isn't necessarily about the idea that music and art, in itself will go away, that's obviously false, this post is about whether electronic repetitive beats is "music" and whether a white 50x50 canvass with a green circle is "art". The question is, is art and music dying? Not is expression dying.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is art and music dying?

Post by Sy Borg »

Cogito ergo sum wrote:There is nothing you can tell me with your guitar that can't be better expressed with language.
I wonder how Jeff Beck might express verbally or in writing what he expresses on guitar here and if it would have the same effect?
I have known musicians who struggled socially and verbally but were deeply eloquent on their instrument. At the elite levels, try listening to Miles Davis's Kind of Blue and then listen to him give an interview.

Even if we decided that whatever Miles expresses in his music is expressed more eloquently with words, he himself speaks best with his trumpet and his musical voice has enough visceral and other appeal to find a large audience. If you offer people the gift of visceral appeal then they become more receptive to any content you bring, a fact exploited in advertising jingles and graphics, "message bands", benefit concerts, etc.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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