The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

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UniversalAlien
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The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by UniversalAlien »

Boxing as an Art? and the Fight of the Century! Yes, boxing is an art, a sport that requires strength, endurance and a raw intelligence that evolved from Man's primitive past. Great boxers are more than just endurance and speed - they must have developed an intelligence and the execution of this intelligence is indeed an art. Tonight {May 2, 2015} we will see what has come to be called "The Fight of the Century" where two of the highest rated fighters of the 21st Century will square off - Mayweather vs Pacquiao. It has re-generated an interest in boxing like no other fight in recent memory and will generate many millions of dollars in revenue. Now the philosophical question is why are we interested in boxing - a primitive sport that evolves from man's primal nature? And can you call boxing an art? Is fighting an art? There is a classic book called 'The Art of War". They sometimes call medicine, which is basically a science, an art. Can we call boxing, and other fighting sports, arts? Is there an aesthetic ideal that we can see in the fighting arts :?:
ScottieX
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Re: The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by ScottieX »

Seems like an art to me as much as any other sport is an art.

But the way Mayweather does it is not a very popular art. Most people just watch because they hope the other guy will break his face for being such a boring boxer.

Makes one wonder why they don't watch Golovkin instead. then they could actually cheer for the winner for once.
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LuckyR
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Re: The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by LuckyR »

In this context, I feel that "art" means the opposite of "science", similar to the use of art in the context of Medicine, as stipulated. Very few are going to look at Medicine (or boxing for that matter) as art, like a sculpture or a painting, rather the message is that the correct practice of Medicine involves much more than science and involves treating the "whole patient" ie the emotional, psychological and cultural aspects of a patient, inaddition to pathology (in a scientific sense).

Similarly, to a serious student of boxing, there can be poetry in the fight, while the unknowing just see two muscled out guys hitting each other.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by Sy Borg »

UniversalAlien wrote:Now the philosophical question is why are we interested in boxing - a primitive sport that evolves from man's primal nature? And can you call boxing an art? Is fighting an art? There is a classic book called 'The Art of War". They sometimes call medicine, which is basically a science, an art. Can we call boxing, and other fighting sports, arts? Is there an aesthetic ideal that we can see in the fighting arts :?:
I wandered over to visit my nephew next door and he had an entire tribe of young blokes there watching that fight at his place. As with any sport, you cannot gain an appreciation for the forces involved on TV. I learned that when I asked a championship standard tennis player I knew to give me a "proper" serve. I was standing metres behind the baseline and I suddenly felt the ball hurtle past my head.

It takes aptitude and skill to generate the kinds of forces used by professional athletes. In boxing it does make you wonder what's happening to their brains, as per Muhammad Ali but it's no my concern if not too much taxpayer money is going into it.

Generally I define art as that which is intended to be art. So I wouldn't say that boxing is an art, no more than tennis or any other sport. However, sports can be appreciated like art by some observers who are able to understand the "artistic aspects" and appreciate the creative processes involved when contestants mix their training with improvisational adaptations in the heat of the moment.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Lucylu
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Re: The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by Lucylu »

Greta wrote:In boxing it does make you wonder what's happening to their brains
Ironically boxing was actually much safer before they brought in the use of gloves. Before then people would naturally punch the body and the softer areas to prevent breaking their hands, but since the padded gloves were introduced, they punch each other in the head with abandon! Personally, I cant watch.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". -Bertrand Russell
Harbal
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Re: The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by Harbal »

If boxing is art then any skill is art which I don't think is the case. That is what I have decided.
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Henry Case
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Re: The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by Henry Case »

Harbal wrote:If boxing is art then any skill is art which I don't think is the case. That is what I have decided.
I agree with this. If physical excellence at any enterprise producing possible beauty-- like a beautiful golf swing--is art, then any sport could be an art. Golf and curling are not art. Also, can something still be art if it actively leads to the degradation and destruction of its participants? Obviously boxing is not quite snuff films, but it's observers know full well it damages the bodies and brains of, and sometimes immediately kills, its participants. Real art shouldn't and doesn't do that.
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Re: The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by LuckyR »

Well, we are all in agreement that dancing is art, no? Then ice dancing must be art too, right? True it's an Olymic medal sport as well. So we have established that a sport can be an art.

Is yoga closer to a sport or an art form? How about tai chi? It must be an art since it surely is not a sport. Well if tai chi is art, then karate is pretty close to that and boxing is pretty close to karate. Thus boxing could be considered a legit art form, though obviously also a sport.
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Henry Case
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Re: The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by Henry Case »

LuckyR wrote:Well, we are all in agreement that dancing is art, no? Then ice dancing must be art too, right? True it's an Olymic medal sport as well. So we have established that a sport can be an art.

Is yoga closer to a sport or an art form? How about tai chi? It must be an art since it surely is not a sport. Well if tai chi is art, then karate is pretty close to that and boxing is pretty close to karate. Thus boxing could be considered a legit art form, though obviously also a sport.
You completely neglected my arguments from my last post, Lucky. I said:
Also, can something still be art if it actively leads to the degradation and destruction of its participants? Obviously boxing is not quite snuff films, but it's observers know full well it damages the bodies and brains of, and sometimes immediately kills, its participants. Real art shouldn't and doesn't do that.
So, I pose that question to you: can something still be art if it actively leads to the degradation and destruction of its participants? If so, that could open the door for artistic snuff films or artistic hardcore pornography hurting its participants being art as well.
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Re: The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by LuckyR »

Henry Case wrote:
LuckyR wrote:Well, we are all in agreement that dancing is art, no? Then ice dancing must be art too, right? True it's an Olymic medal sport as well. So we have established that a sport can be an art.

Is yoga closer to a sport or an art form? How about tai chi? It must be an art since it surely is not a sport. Well if tai chi is art, then karate is pretty close to that and boxing is pretty close to karate. Thus boxing could be considered a legit art form, though obviously also a sport.
You completely neglected my arguments from my last post, Lucky. I said:
Also, can something still be art if it actively leads to the degradation and destruction of its participants? Obviously boxing is not quite snuff films, but it's observers know full well it damages the bodies and brains of, and sometimes immediately kills, its participants. Real art shouldn't and doesn't do that.
So, I pose that question to you: can something still be art if it actively leads to the degradation and destruction of its participants? If so, that could open the door for artistic snuff films or artistic hardcore pornography hurting its participants being art as well.

Uummm... I was addressing Harbal, if you must, but I'll take your comments on as well: Well, we are in agreement that dancing is art, right? You certainly must be aware that ballet can lead to debilitating injuries and overuse damage to dancer's feet, are you not? If not, luckily this has been extensively studied:

http://www.washington.edu/news/2000/10/ ... -injuries/

"No, no" I hear you protest, ballet is different, injuries are accidents of dance not the intent of the dance, whereas injuries are the intent of boxing. OK, but now you're changing your argument when faced with evidence of it's weakness. Thanks for the acknowledgement.

To use your analogies, we are all in agreement that film is art, right? Is everything that is physically on film, "art"? Most would probably argue "no". Thus it is perfectly legitimate to argue that pornography or the mythical "snuff" film genre is not art, though this can be accomplished without invoking harm to the participants as the reasoning for doing so.

If harm to the participants is a large determining factor in whether an activity is art or not, what is your opinion on fencing? Very safe, essentially no true harm, is fencing art?
"As usual... it depends."
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Henry Case
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Re: The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by Henry Case »

Henry Case wrote:So, I pose that question to you: can something still be art if it actively leads to the degradation and destruction of its participants? If so, that could open the door for artistic snuff films or artistic hardcore pornography hurting its participants being art as well.
Uummm... I was addressing Harbal, if you must, but I'll take your comments on as well: Well, we are in agreement that dancing is art, right? You certainly must be aware that ballet can lead to debilitating injuries and overuse damage to dancer's feet, are you not? If not, luckily this has been extensively studied:

http://www.washington.edu/news/2000/10/ ... -injuries/

"No, no" I hear you protest, ballet is different, injuries are accidents of dance not the intent of the dance, whereas injuries are the intent of boxing. OK, but now you're changing your argument when faced with evidence of it's weakness. Thanks for the acknowledgement.

To use your analogies, we are all in agreement that film is art, right? Is everything that is physically on film, "art"? Most would probably argue "no". Thus it is perfectly legitimate to argue that pornography or the mythical "snuff" film genre is not art, though this can be accomplished without invoking harm to the participants as the reasoning for doing so.

If harm to the participants is a large determining factor in whether an activity is art or not, what is your opinion on fencing? Very safe, essentially no true harm, is fencing art?
That was an intriguing irrelevant replication of your previous post, a complete evasion of my post and arguments, and a complete misrepresentation of my "analogies." You are aware that philosophical discussion actually depends on addressing what your interlocutor stated and not misrepresenting it, right?

So, I will re-post my boxing question you failed to address in any way:

"Also, can something still be art if it actively leads to the degradation and destruction of its participants? Obviously boxing is not quite snuff films, but it's observers know full well it damages the bodies and brains of, and sometimes immediately kills, its participants. Real art shouldn't and doesn't do that."

Maybe you can actually address it in your next post. Your irrelevant snuff film anecdote not only misrepresented my analogies, it was irrelevant to the argument. You just simply claim snuff films might not be art because film might not be art: a loathsome minimilization of the issues. I had claimed that calling boxing--which degrades and destroys its participants--"art" would open the door for other activities destroying and degrading their participants, like snuff films, to be art as well. Again, your post above completely failed to address that issue...try to do so in your next post.
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UniversalAlien
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Re: The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by UniversalAlien »

Allow me to answer my post, written spontaneously, while the momentary boxing mania over the supposed 'fight of the century' was about to happen. Afterwards I thought, no it wasn't the fight of the century and if you want to call boxing an art then you can call anything art - And indeed in some ways everything is an art. BUT in art the emphasis is on aesthetics - not strategy and war - which is the emphasis in winning in boxing. In bringing up ballet and ice skating there is a big difference - Here we do have an emphasis on aesthetics and contestants are so judged - Boxing judges do not rate boxers on the aesthetics of there strategies but rather they give points based on an accepted system. So boxing, the sport, is not an art - Photographing, filming and/or painting boxers and boxing scenes though might very well be considered art. And how they so hyped this past fight to make so much money off of it some might also call an art - But like boxing this is more in the realm of business strategy than art.
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Re: The Art of Boxing and the Fight of the Century

Post by LuckyR »

Henry Case wrote:"Also, can something still be art if it actively leads to the degradation and destruction of its participants? Obviously boxing is not quite snuff films, but it's observers know full well it damages the bodies and brains of, and sometimes immediately kills, its participants. Real art shouldn't and doesn't do that."
Well, we all get a chance in a Forum format to ask our questions and seek answers. I will take your insistance on sole focus being applied to your questions as a lack of something (interest, ability, whathaveyou) required to broaden the discussion beyond your own posted ideas until I hear differently.

Sentence 1: Yes, since degradation and destruction is not part of the formal, nor common defintion of "art"

Sentence 2: Agreed on both counts

Sentence 3: Essentially opinion. A fine one, but ultimately just opinion.
"As usual... it depends."
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