Art, Ed Sheeran and the rest

Use this forum to have philosophical discussions about aesthetics and art. What is art? What is beauty? What makes art good? You can also use this forum to discuss philosophy in the arts, namely to discuss the philosophical points in any particular movie, TV show, book or story.
Post Reply
User avatar
pomarine
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: December 26th, 2017, 7:58 pm

Art, Ed Sheeran and the rest

Post by pomarine »

Is art purely subjective or is some art truly "better" than others? I struggle with this, as I know some intelligent adults who genuinely seem to think that Ed Sheeran is a good songwriter? I do wonder if it's just that some people are looking to music / art to offer something deeper in their lives, while others can just appreciate it on a more superficial level? Or perhaps the reason people claim to like such blatantly commercially oriented "art" has nothing to do with the art itself, and it's purely down to following the crowd and the social capital gains associated with liking it? Or am I in vocally disliking people like Ed Sheeran just being a pop music snob who could easily be "out-snobbed" by someone more into their say avant-garde or high art?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7914
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Art, Ed Sheeran and the rest

Post by LuckyR »

Art has a measuring problem. Since it exists and thrives in a subjective universe, it lacks yardsticks that individual observers can use to compare their subjective assessments. Popularity can be an objective measure, but then there is the "sell out" backlash associated with popularity.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
3uGH7D4MLj
Posts: 934
Joined: January 4th, 2013, 3:39 pm

Re: Art, Ed Sheeran and the rest

Post by 3uGH7D4MLj »

pomarine wrote: December 26th, 2017, 9:06 pm Is art purely subjective or is some art truly "better" than others? I struggle with this, as I know some intelligent adults who genuinely seem to think that Ed Sheeran is a good songwriter? I do wonder if it's just that some people are looking to music / art to offer something deeper in their lives, while others can just appreciate it on a more superficial level? Or perhaps the reason people claim to like such blatantly commercially oriented "art" has nothing to do with the art itself, and it's purely down to following the crowd and the social capital gains associated with liking it? Or am I in vocally disliking people like Ed Sheeran just being a pop music snob who could easily be "out-snobbed" by someone more into their say avant-garde or high art?
Pop music. Tin Pan Alley had some great songwriters, great musicians writing great songs. The big band era was pretty exciting. Picture being in the room with the Basie orchestra, or Ellington. (I envy my Mom) This stuff was written, arrangements were painstakingly notated, the players were trained and talented. And it thundered.

At a certain point everything went 1-4-5. The inventiveness of tin pan alley was not needed it seemed, because this stuff was popular, simple, but selling like hotcakes. Some of it was embarrassingly stupid, but it helped define a generation. There was a musical formula, a satisfying blues-like pattern which was immensely popular with the kids. Some say that songs in the early 60s were just advertisements for a 79 cent piece of plastic, it was, but I think it was more than that. It was American music (forgive my bias, it's all I know), but it was the music of the African diaspora. The music of the African diaspora is a cultural colossus. It stretches from Benny Goodman to Miles, to Marley, to Ravel and Stravinski, to Little Richard and Chuck Berry. It's great stuff and is still with us.

Anyway, I can remember being so bigoted about which bands were cool, and judging people by the music they listened to. It was so important. Now I see all these musicians, artists, as just people who are trying to make a living in a difficult industry, give 'em a break. Some are always more interesting. Don't know Ed Sheeran, but I'd say feel free to judge, some are truly better than others.
fair to say
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Art, Ed Sheeran and the rest

Post by Eduk »

I would say there are a few things to consider.
As humans we have a shared subjectivity but not a perfectly shared subjectivity.
Our own knowledge of our own subjective experience is something that we, normally, claim expertise and an unalienable right upon but we are often wrong. We are imperfect judges of ourselves.
Everything is ultimately existential (whether that is 'right' or 'wrong').
So within the context of humanity then yes some art is better than some other art for humanity as a whole but there is variance within individuals (and legitimate variance too). So in the case of Ed Sheeran then yes his lyrics and music are what you might expect from Helmholtz (from Brave New World). So for most humans his music will lead ultimately to dissatisfaction but for some humans it might be genuinely good. Of course many more people claim it is good than are right to claim it is good.
Unknown means unknown.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Art, Ed Sheeran and the rest

Post by Steve3007 »

To me, Ed Sheeran's lyrics sound roughly how I would expect the lyrics of a 20-something songwriter to sound to a cynical 50-something: like adolescent poetry. If I was a teenager I might think differently. When I was a teenager I loved the music of The Smiths. No doubt 50-somethings at the time thought it sounded like adolescent poetry. And so it goes on back through the generations.

Ed Sheeran went to school with some relatives of mine and grew up in the town of Framlingham, Suffolk, England. His song "Castle on the Hill" is about his experiences growing up in and around that town. (The castle of the title is the 12th Century Framlingham castle which was, among other things, used by the Catholic Mary Tudor, daughter of Henry VIII, to gather her forces ready for the assault on London in 1553 to seize the crown and kill lots of Protestants.) It's clear from the lyrics of the song and the accounts of my relatives that the lyrics are a sincerely written portrait of his youth. They're not meant for old cynics like me.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Art, Ed Sheeran and the rest

Post by Eduk »

Me and my friends have not thrown up in so long, oh how we’ve grown – “Castle on the Hill”
"I was looking for a job, and then I found a job / And heaven knows, I'm miserable now / In my life, why do I give valuable time to people who don't care if I live or die?"
I like the Smiths. But you don't have to like them. If you think Beethoven is better then you aren't wrong.
Singing isn't just about lyrics. It's also about performance. For example Johnny Cash sounds like he believes what he is singing.
Unknown means unknown.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Art, Ed Sheeran and the rest

Post by Steve3007 »

Eduk wrote:Singing isn't just about lyrics. It's also about performance. For example Johnny Cash sounds like he believes what he is singing.
Yes indeed. Morrissey's performance usually involved waving a large bunch of gladioli around and wearing a hearing aid as a fashion accessory. Great stuff.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of the Arts and Philosophy in the Arts”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021