Is rap art?

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XavierAlex
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by XavierAlex » January 20th, 2013, 6:26 pm

Rap (or hip-hop) is a genre of music. Music is art. Therefore, rap is art.

Fleetfootphil
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by Fleetfootphil » January 21st, 2013, 11:00 pm

Is all music art?

XavierAlex
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by XavierAlex » January 22nd, 2013, 1:13 pm

By definition, yes. Taking a qualitative examination of art pieces is different than its definition. That's why the observer makes a scale of good to bad. But how do you scale a definition? Music cannot be sometimes art or sometimes not. It must be defined as something else. So if I draw a picture and say that's music, by definition id be wrong. If somehow it were a metaphor, then a loose intrepretation would have to be associated. But by definition, music is art, the. well-established genre of hiphop and rap are a genre of music. Therefore, rap is art.

Fleetfootphil
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by Fleetfootphil » January 22nd, 2013, 5:06 pm

Really? I wasn't thinking about qualitative positioning of music when I asked if all music is art. It is possible that some music is noise. In fact, it's possible that all music is noise and none of it is art. In that case, those who consider music to be art are basing that on a judgment of whether they personally respond to some or all noise favorably, maybe cerebrally, but anyway, personally.

It's also possible that all noise is music.

XavierAlex
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by XavierAlex » January 22nd, 2013, 5:26 pm

True, I guess. I think there's a semantic problem here. Say if it's Sonic Youth, they incorporate noise into their music. While artists like Lou Reed have created symphonies inaudible to human ears (for canines). Some say that teenagers hear different frequencies than when they get older, which is why they enjoy certain distinctions in punk or hardcore, while adults would shudder if it isn't Mozart or something.

I don't agree that "All music is noise and none of it is art". I would be more inclined to agree that all noise is music, though. Take natural surroundings, such as trees, water, birds, etc. While most people would consider noise, Bernie Krause considers it (and persuasively shows) nature is music.

The reason I don't agree with All music-is-noise statement is for my lack of a better usage, an analogy: It's like saying "all food is inedible and none of it is food". Rap is like an edgier type of food, but it's still a food. In fact, spoken word--in the poetry community--some will argue isn't music nor poetry. But it is still art. It is still a type of food.

However, since rap and hip hop incorporate many elements of music, dance, rhythm, rhyme, beat--it would fit into the category of music, and then the category of art. It even has a history as an art.

Fleetfootphil
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by Fleetfootphil » January 23rd, 2013, 10:49 pm

I have no problem with rap as music and as art. As long as I accept anything as music, or anything as art, I have to accept rap as both. The real question is what makes any sound more than the series of guttural grunts that it really is. I tend to think it is us and not the sounds themselves. Sounds are passive and have to wait on our human and active judgment for classification.

XavierAlex
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by XavierAlex » January 24th, 2013, 1:43 am

Sounds I don't think are passive and if humans didn't exist they will still signify to the different animals, plants, and rocks; however, since no human exists and sounds are still in use they are not noise or art. They would be necessary for survival and for ecological reasons. What resonates to us most are usually human in origin.

Aonghus
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by Aonghus » January 24th, 2013, 6:06 am

Rap is art - vernacular street poetry accompanied by music. But (as with any art form) there is both good and bad. That doesn't discount the fact that it is art.

Mariakaptain
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by Mariakaptain » January 27th, 2013, 6:53 am

XavierAlex wrote:I don't agree that "All music is noise and none of it is art". I would be more inclined to agree that all noise is music, though. Take natural surroundings, such as trees, water, birds, etc. While most people would consider noise, Bernie Krause considers it (and persuasively shows) nature is music.

The reason I don't agree with All music-is-noise statement is for my lack of a better usage, an analogy: It's like saying "all food is inedible and none of it is food". Rap is like an edgier type of food, but it's still a food. In fact, spoken word--in the poetry community--some will argue isn't music nor poetry. But it is still art. It is still a type of food.

However, since rap and hip hop incorporate many elements of music, dance, rhythm, rhyme, beat--it would fit into the category of music, and then the category of art. It even has a history as an art.
The fact that we hear birds singing or the noise of passing cars, that doesn't mean that this is music. Because if that was true, then art of music wouldn't exist. The difference with the art is that you have to take the notes to make a piece which expresses the thoughts and feelings of every human. The synthesis of music pieces needs 1)mathematical thinking, 2)a plan of story, 3) a forma, 4)melody, 5) harmonic connection of notes and 6) words which fit musically with the synthesis and are part of the whole which the artist use to express his feelings with his own performance.

Do you think that rap, or hip-hop, has all these properties?Would you consider that someone who is performing a classical music piece on the piano it's the same with someone who is just saying a rap or hip-hop piece?

Aonghus
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by Aonghus » January 27th, 2013, 7:28 am

I think if you want to analyse any song's aesthetic value, you have to look at both lyrics and harmony. Some songs are stronger lyrically than they are musically. Most people would regard Leonard Cohen as a great musician despite his limited vocal range and his cheesy arrangements - that guy just loves synths and drum machines. Why? Because his work is so strong, lyrically. Rap is similar. The music is secondary to the lyrical content, although there is a spectrum within that criteria.

Fleetfootphil
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by Fleetfootphil » January 27th, 2013, 3:14 pm

Didn't Cage disprove the notion that music needs a plan, as well as mathematical or any other thinking?

XavierAlex
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by XavierAlex » January 27th, 2013, 11:08 pm

Mariakaptain wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


The fact that we hear birds singing or the noise of passing cars, that doesn't mean that this is music. Because if that was true, then art of music wouldn't exist. The difference with the art is that you have to take the notes to make a piece which expresses the thoughts and feelings of every human. The synthesis of music pieces needs 1)mathematical thinking, 2)a plan of story, 3) a forma, 4)melody, 5) harmonic connection of notes and 6) words which fit musically with the synthesis and are part of the whole which the artist use to express his feelings with his own performance.

Do you think that rap, or hip-hop, has all these properties?Would you consider that someone who is performing a classical music piece on the piano it's the same with someone who is just saying a rap or hip-hop piece?
Does any music fit the thoughts and feeling of EVERY human? No. Most musicians don't follow a classical structure. And not all of them have mathematical thinking, a story, harmony, nor voice. Besides I think we are speaking about a few different things here. A structured piece of classical music can fit all those things, but would it resonate with many the same way as hip hop does? No.

De gustibus non est disputandum

I brought up nature as music not because I was challenging the notion of classical harmonies and Mozart or Chopin. But rather to be a little more loose in the interpretation of music. But you cannot get around the fact that when you surf iTunes for music there is a whole section called Hip-hop. Whether your ears shrivel up when you hear Eminem or whoever doesn't mean it ain't art.

Wow. I think sometimes philosophy takes the obvious and sort of disregards it for its own personal persuasion. Watch out for Elvis.

Mariakaptain
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by Mariakaptain » January 29th, 2013, 6:27 am

Fleetfootphil wrote:Didn't Cage disprove the notion that music needs a plan, as well as mathematical or any other thinking?
XavierAlex wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

Does any music fit the thoughts and feeling of EVERY human? No. Most musicians don't follow a classical structure. And not all of them have mathematical thinking, a story, harmony, nor voice. Besides I think we are speaking about a few different things here. A structured piece of classical music can fit all those things, but would it resonate with many the same way as hip hop does? No.

De gustibus non est disputandum
If you don't want, don't use mathematical thinking, it can be also a music piece. No all music we hear has mathematical thnking inside of course, but I referred to it because it is one of the elements that can make a piece more qualitive or because it is a very good element when we compose a poet (this is where I heard about that). But even if you don't use it, the rest elements are needed, and even a simple lyric song has a planning, what is the history I'm going to sing about and how I'll make the piece. In everything there is also planning. So, for all these reasons, I don't think rap is music. I think that a structured piece of classical music and any other music, does resonate vey good and it's not compared with hip-hop. Hip-hop surely has its own style.
Mariakaptain wrote:he difference with the art is that you have to take the notes to make a piece which expresses the thoughts and feelings of every human.
What I wrote here means that art can express the feelings and thoughts of every human. I don't oblige anybody to make a piece of music to express all the feelings and also, all the thoughts of humen, simply because this is not reachable and because this is not art, I guess. But I'm sure that when you hear a song, yes, it indeed expresses the feelings you have sometimes or some thoughts that you may had that are expressed by its lyrics. And this is the difference I think there is between art and rap, as with all the previous elements, rap can't be music for me.

XavierAlex wrote:I brought up nature as music not because I was challenging the notion of classical harmonies and Mozart or Chopin. But rather to be a little more loose in the interpretation of music. But you cannot get around the fact that when you surf iTunes for music there is a whole section called Hip-hop. Whether your ears shrivel up when you hear Eminem or whoever doesn't mean it ain't art.

Ok, forget the example with classic music. I guess that it made more misunderstanding than explaining.Suppose that someone is playing a rock piece. Do you think that it's the same with someone who plays a hip-hop song? I have this opinion for every kind of music. All the kinds have exact these elements above.So, this is why I insist that in contrast with them, rap can't be a music. And it isn't the same with someone playing a piece of any kind of music as when he just says a rap song. Because all of these are art.

Yes, when I look for music in youtube there is a hip-hop section. But I don't regard hip-hop music as art because those songs are categorized in this way in youtube or anywhere. I'll consider it as art or not from what I heard, because hip-hop makes sense for me, it's music for me and covers me. I think that hip-hop is something new that is between rhythme and rhyme without being art so of course it should be written among other music so that someone can search it and find it but this doesn't mean that it is music. And if hip-hop was undoubtly music, then why you make this post here?

No,I like Eminem.From all of the other hip-hop singers I think he is the best and actually I don't hear the others. And I'll hear Elvis, too. So, I think that you didn't interptret me good enough.
XavierAlex wrote:Wow. I think sometimes philosophy takes the obvious and sort of disregards it for its own personal persuasion. Watch out for Elvis.
If you want to distinguish people as categories of those who listen to classical music and of those who sing hip-hop then these are your own bias and stereytypes of which is the world. I wouldn't classify my self as being someone who represent "philosophy" or being someone between some people who represent "philosophy" or are a movement. i just epxress an opinion which is different from yours and if you want to discriminate people and putting them in categories because they don't have the same opinion with yours I think that this is no good.

I'm not persuaded by anything but from my opinion. As you have yours.

And maybe it could imply for hip-hop fans who don't hear to any other else that "the hip-hop singers take the obvious and sort of disregards them for their own personal persuasion".

XavierAlex
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Re: Is rap art?

Post by XavierAlex » January 29th, 2013, 9:10 am

Look, apologies if I was flippant. If you don't thin hip hop is a form of music whis is an art, then like you said, you are taking a qualitative look. It appears to me that you are holding up standards (elements making a music piece) that don't necessarily encompass all music. A dj or bongo drummer can create a rhytmn and nothing else and people dance. Why wouldn't that be music? Or art? Hip hop can have many complex layers. The importance here is not liking or thinking its good, but knowing that certain genres of music exist and resonate witheir audience. Hip hop does so.

Fleetfootphil
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Joined: May 25th, 2012, 9:33 pm

Re: Is rap art?

Post by Fleetfootphil » February 1st, 2013, 5:04 pm

Rap gets a bad rap because of where it came from, what it says and how it says it. And, for who does most of the speaking. I have read that rock-and-roll wasn't exactly embraced by the genteel in its early days either. Much of the world continues to be confused by yodeling.

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