What is atheism?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Quotidian
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Quotidian »

Vijaydevani wrote: Frankly, I find your connection here ridiculous and it seems now you are just looking for anything to put atheists down.
It's nothing personal and I'm not putting anyone down. This issue is straight out of ethics 101; the fact that atheism undermines the traditional basis for the Judeo-Christian ethos is a major topic in ethical theory, as is the 'is-ought distinction', which goes back to David Hume.

Anyway, I'm signing out for a couple of days, going to the country. Bye for now.
'For there are many here among us who think that life is but a joke' ~ Dylan
Obvious Leo
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Quotidian. I reckon you're cutting a few corners with your either/or stance on ethics. Either we accept the notion of an absolute morality or we all get to decide for ourselves. If that's not what you're saying then I apologise but surely morality is a social question and our ethical positions are merely reflections of our cultural mores.

Was Jefferson a hypocrite and immoral villain for being a slaveholder while advocating for the liberty of all men? How can we judge this man according to our 21st century cultural values? At what arbitrary moment in time did it become not OK to harbour prejudice against homosexuals? I'm sure that we can agree that in our modern world this is not OK but does that mean it has never been OK and all those who did so were guilty of a moral crime? Surely morality must go hand in hand with our social conventions and our system of laws.

There's no way I could ever see the world in such a black and white way so I assume I've misunderstood you.

Regards Leo
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Okay, now can someone please explain to me why my saying "whether or not love and hate are real is a matter of opinion" is such a big deal? Some people think love is real, others do not. What is the connection with ethics and atheism? Or the slippery slope? I truly do not get it.
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Quotidian
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Quotidian »

I am not 'cutting corners', but this being an internet forum, I put forward some points in a summary form.


Looking back again at that phrase that I quoted from Vijay:

'I, an atheist, hereby assert that whether or not love and hate are real is categorically a matter of opinion' -

Looking at the context in which the statement was made, I see that this might have been intended ironically, whereas I read it at face value. So, I am willing to acknowledge it might have been misinterpretation on my part.

But reading it at face value, what I took it to mean is just what it says: that 'whether hate and love are real is a matter of opinion'. And I took that as an example of the view that ethical matters, generally, are a matter of opinion, or, perhaps, 'a matter of individual conscience'. And there are plenty of people who will say that they are exactly that. Contrast the traditionalist view (which is not exclusively Christian) that there are 'real virtues', that is, virtues which are intrinsically valuable, regardless of whether you or I agree that there are. (Aristotelean ethics are an example of that kind of 'virtue ethic'.)

Now the 'slippery slope' argument is as follows. If one rejects the traditionalist basis of ethical judgements, such as that encoded in the Jewish and Christian traditions, then you have to find some other basis for ethical values and judgements. There are other such bases, for instance utilitarianism, 'the greatest good for the greatest number'. Or you might say 'the Golden Rule' of 'do unto others...' suffices as the basis for an ethical system, as well it might.

But it is not hard to make the case that in the absence of a generally-accepted set of moral and ethical norms, that the viewpoint of 'moral relativism' and/or 'moral subjectivism' is a likely outcome. 'Moral relativism' generally rejects the idea of 'moral norms' or it might say they are matters of social convention, or are the product of a specific world-view; in any case, a moral relativist won't generally recognize that there are such things as 'moral facts' or 'laws'.

Consider this hypothetical: sometime in the not-too-distant future, in an over-crowded and resource-depleted planet, a nationalist political movement starts up which argues that, due to the dire circumstances in which humanity finds itself, it is necessary that support ought to be withdrawn from some populations, who are in any case not productive or not in a position to support themselves, so as to concentrate resources for the benefit of those populations who at least have some chance of creating a decent life.

Now the Christian response to that would be that it was out of the question, because all people are equal. But that, in turn, is a value-judgement, even if it is one that we nowadays take for granted; but it is one of the aspects of what we now know as 'human rights' that was the product of Christian political systems.

Of course there are many things that could be discussed here. The point I was making, and I admit I made it in too peremptory a fashion to begin with, is that in a completely secular worldview, it is difficult or even impossible to find a point of reference for the idea of a 'moral law', and even a lot of what we take for granted under the umbrella term 'human rights'. Many of those concepts were grounded in the Christian philosophy of 'the person'.

You will notice that the existence and/or relevance of the concept of 'the person' is indeed under question by many of the materialist critics of Christianity; Daniel Dennett, for instance, says there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that human beings are really only 'moist robots' 1. He and others like him also says that the human mind is no different to a computer, and there is no difference in kind between humans and animals. So I see this kind of thinking as basically 'anti-humanist' - which is what is what I mean by a slippery slope.

Anyway on that note I really do have to sign out for a few days, I'm going somewhere with no internet connection.
'For there are many here among us who think that life is but a joke' ~ Dylan
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Siphersh
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Siphersh »

Why do atheists call themselves atheists instead of "not religious"?
Vijaydevani
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Siphersh wrote:Why do atheists call themselves atheists instead of "not religious"?
First of all, I do not believe atheists call themselves atheists. According to wiki, "The term atheism originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)", used as a pejorative term applied to those thought to reject the gods worshiped by the larger society." Since the likelihood of atheists choosing an insult to describe themselves is small, we have to go by the far greater likelihood that this title was thrust upon the atheist.

There are also a lot of people who are not religious but believe in God. Those who have taken a spiritual path are also quite often not religious. They are not atheists. Atheists are people who reject the concept of God. "not religious" does not really cover it. I do not know if atheists also reject the concept of "the higher self" or "enlightenment" or the various other aspects of spiritual search. I know I do but I am not sure if it applies to atheists across the board.
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Neopolitan »

Siphersh wrote:Why do atheists call themselves atheists instead of "not religious"?
Depending on what you mean by the term "atheist", you'll probably find that a lot of atheists aren't actually atheists.

As VJ pointed out, it's a term thrust on those who don't believe, and is why some atheists say they are atheists in the same sense as they are not collectors of stamps. We are being defined by just one of very many things we don't do (ie believe in a god). You might, who knows, believe that an atheist positively and actively believes that there is no god. There are some atheists like this, usually they have argued themselves into a very high level of confidence that the existence of a god is impossible and taken the step to say they might as well actively believe that there is no god. For most of us, however, this final step isn't necessary or would be inappropriate.

I, for one, have a very high level of confidence that there is no god. I don't actively believe that there is no god, in part because there are so many gods and so many versions of the supposedly "one true god" that I don't know precisely what I should actively disbelieve. It's easier to simply no believe. If that makes me a non-theist rather than an atheist, I am more than happy with that, which is why I frequently refer to myself as a non-theist. But I'll accept atheist, agnostic, agnostic atheist, weak atheist, soft atheist, apatheist, irreligious, non-religious, infidel and so on. If pushed, I'll accept strong atheist and/or hard atheist (if my high level of confidence that there is no god is translated to mean active belief that there is no god) and even anti-theist (since I do find some theist irritatingly condescending and there are only certain types of people from whom I will accept condescension). I'll accept materialist, physicalist, rationalist, monist and "scientistic" (as well as scientist (and also "physicistic" as well as physicist)). I'm not an apostate though, since I have never signed up to a religion in the first place, nor have I ever believed on an informal basis. Sometimes I am even described as a pagan, but that's not quite right, but if you loosely interpret "pagan" as meaning "not holding to of the main world religions", then it could work. Describing atheists as pagans also works for those people who misguidedly consider atheism to be a religion in and of itself, but that just makes them wrong on two counts.
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Obvious Leo
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Vijaydevani wrote: There are also a lot of people who are not religious but believe in God.
I would agree with this but would rather you phrased it "are not religious but profess a belief in god". These are the vast majority who don't bother to think about such things. You don't need to scratch them very deeply to discover that no such belief exists. For instance very few believe in the efficacy of prayer and worship and almost none are swallowing the life hereafter nonsense. These would more properly be defined as deists, not theists. They vaguely assume that the universe was created because they have no science and believe that no other explanation is to hand. That's about it. They simply go through their entire lives without ever giving the matter a second thought. They believe in god in the same way they believe in their football team. Because that's the way they were brought up as children.

Regards Leo
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Neopolitan wrote: it's a term thrust on those who don't believe, and is why some atheists say they are atheists in the same sense as they are not collectors of stamps.
I think that is the perfect way to explain atheists. Just as there are people who do not collect stamps and have only not collecting stamps in common with them, atheists are people who do not believe in the God concept. Other than that, they have as much in common as people who do not collect stamps. I think I will use this every time, some one tries to turn us into a horde or something.
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Syamsu
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Syamsu »

Talking round the reality of the issue. An atheist requires evidence, evidence, evidence. Atheists reject subjectivity which is plainly shown in this thread by that all atheists reject the procedure of choosing about what it is that chooses, which is the procedure to obtain an opinion.

Love and hate choose, they are motivation of a decision, therefore the existence of them is a matter of opinion.

But with atheists this changes to love and hate are products of electrochemical brainfunctions. It is upside down the creator becomes the created.

Atheists well know that belief in God is subjective, and they are explicitly dismissive of the emotions which sustains the opinion. They are dismissive of all emotions people have, they are dismissive of the human spirit because it cannot be measured just as well as they are dismissive of God the holy spirit for lack of evidence.

That is the reality of atheism on the ground, in daily life, and on forums.
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Theophane »

Siphersh wrote:Why do atheists call themselves atheists instead of "not religious"?
Atheist = Strong Conviction
"Not Religious" = Weak Conviction
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Siphersh »

Theophane wrote:
Siphersh wrote:Why do atheists call themselves atheists instead of "not religious"?
Atheist = Strong Conviction
"Not Religious" = Weak Conviction
But isn't atheism supposed to be the lack of belief in gods? If it's a conviction, then why don't they call themselves anti-theists instead?
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Siphersh wrote:
Theophane wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Atheist = Strong Conviction
"Not Religious" = Weak Conviction
But isn't atheism supposed to be the lack of belief in gods? If it's a conviction, then why don't they call themselves anti-theists instead?
Because we have nothing against the people who do.
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Siphersh
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Siphersh »

Vijaydevani wrote:
Siphersh wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


But isn't atheism supposed to be the lack of belief in gods? If it's a conviction, then why don't they call themselves anti-theists instead?
Because we have nothing against the people who do.
So you're an atheist then? Why do you call yourself an atheist instead of "not religious"?
Vijaydevani
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Re: What is atheism?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Siphersh wrote:
Vijaydevani wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

Because we have nothing against the people who do.
So you're an atheist then? Why do you call yourself an atheist instead of "not religious"?
Read post #248 of the same topic. you skipped a little.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
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