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Spiral Out: The Void is an infinite-potential state for the very reason that it does not exist in the Universe. There is no time, space, matter, concepts, constructs or anything else, therefore there is nothing limiting the potential of the Void. There are no laws that govern it, define it or otherwise constrain it.
Then The Void is a meaningless concept, because it is illogical to define the absence of all qualities as the potential for any quality.
I agree, if nothing is in front of the mirror there is no mirroring!
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.
The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.
Spiral Out: The Void is an infinite-potential state for the very reason that it does not exist in the Universe. There is no time, space, matter, concepts, constructs or anything else, therefore there is nothing limiting the potential of the Void. There are no laws that govern it, define it or otherwise constrain it.
Then The Void is a meaningless concept, because it is illogical to define the absence of all qualities as the potential for any quality.
The concept of meaning is entirely subjective. I think the Universe, and existence itself, is utterly meaningless without also considering the Void and trying to understand its seemingly paradoxical nature.
There are many illogical concepts in the Universe. I find the idea of the Void less illogical than most. The idea of religion is highly illogical yet the vast majority of the Earth's population follow it without question. It's simply a case of fear that people reject the Void. But I say the Void offers more of a chance to live again than any religion, and that idea is rooted in logic.
The thing we know as the Universe will presumably exist forever (as it relates to our conception of time). Time exists in the universe. Space exists in the Universe. Matter exists in the Universe. Nothing exists in the Void. The Void is not an objective thing or place. It is a subjective state of timelessness, space-lessness and matter-lessness.
An eternity of time passed before you came to be. But to you there was no time that had passed. You were in the Void and could not experience time. But here you are now in the Universe experiencing time and space and matter. For whatever reason you can attribute to your existence right now, other than religious concepts, you can also attribute to there being another point in time in the Universe where it will occur again.
How many events can occur in the Universe in an eternity? All of them, right?
I'm sorry but this Void is purely an intellectual concept that has absolutely no basis in any subjective or objective perception. Scientific and metaphysical ideas have a subjective and/or objective basis whereas The Void has none, it is purely a speculative idea.
Spiral Out: I find the idea of the Void less illogical than most. The idea of religion is highly illogical yet the vast majority of the Earth's population follow it without question.
What could be more illogical than an idea that has zero cognitive support? One may subscribe to a religious idea out of faith (fear based or not) or one may subscribe to such an idea out of subjective knowledge i.e., as a result of what may be called a transcendental experience.
It's simply a case of fear that people reject the Void. But I say the Void offers more of a chance to live again than any religion, and that idea is rooted in logic.
It's certainly not rooted in logic, it's an incoherent idea, and therefore I have no reason to fear it. That would be like fearing that I will trip and fall into a big puddle of emptiness on the way to work.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Who ever mentioned the Tao Te Ching has probably hit the nail on the head.
The way that can be spoken of is not the true way.
The way that can be seen is not the true way.
The way that can be thought is not the true way.
This pretty much echoes what you've said above. It is of use only in a negative sense because "the way/void" cannot be held in any positive sense.
If I surround "emptiness" I give it form. An emptiness surrounded by emptiness is beyond apprecable reach. When we construct phrases such as absence of absence we can view it as a negation (I am absent from being absent. So I am here not absent. This is something that does not need to be said it is a peculiar obviousness to say I am not absent). We can also view it as nonsenical (If there is absence of absence then there is no absence to be absent from. In this way there is no obvious logical structure unless referring to some "object"; as above in the absence of absence of myself meaning a "hereness" or "non-absence"). Finally there is the mystical approach that dwells on the concept rather than the "object". This is the creation of infinity and the endless stretching towards the infinite meaning. Within this mystical structure we find such things as presented as actual certitudes. Within this structure we hold the idea of ideal and absolute, of a "truth of truths". Often within thus structure we find many people associating this with a "proof" of god or as the base of some (maybe all) nature beliefs.
There is a rather telling mood that persists when we find a paradox. There are mixtures of comedy and fear here. For me I think from these positions there is a place to explore ourselves and tear down the walls of the "obviousness" of existence and restructure our personal perspective. On the one hand logic tells us to avoid such nonsense yet on the other hand comedy and intrigue offers us a hand of friendship from a groundless and seemingly biasless position of nowhere.
Honestly I often see people takign such mystical views and clothing them as if they are positive things rather than recognising that any value they give is in actuallity merely a negative clothing of a presumption. I refer here to Kantian noumenon regarding "positive" and "negative", or more simply put we are beyond the position of an extraposition (we can extrapolate but never be in the place of otherness). Even more simply put, I can understand what something is through my senses but I cannot be other than I am.
So in sumation the idea of "void" is an extrapolation of your hereness and nowness. It is a way of self reflection as is all of causal experience. The prior to experience is obviously not open to experience it is wholly unknowable in any positive sense and only talked about as a creation of the human mind making intentional acts of "aboutness".
Sorry, I realise that is all quite hard to digest and most likely a lot of drivel if you have little to no appreciation of a phenomenological position in regards to ideas such as "idea", "reality", "time" and pretty much anything else you care to adumbrate in speech.
Who ever mentioned the Tao Te Ching has probably hit the nail on the head.
The way that can be spoken of is not the true way.
The way that can be seen is not the true way.
The way that can be thought is not the true way.
This pretty much echoes what you've said above. It is of use only in a negative sense because "the way/void" cannot be held in any positive sense.
Wayne wrote;
The true way as spoken of in your interpretation of Tao Te Ching; What is the true way?
The true way is the way of the true man; what is the way of the true man?
As explained in the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus;
2400 BC.
“Who it is without false hood certain and most true, that that which is above is like to that which is below and that that which is below is like to that which is above to accomplish the miracles of wondering.”
By the way, Hermes Trismegistus was “Three Times Great.
The Taoists do not say the "way" cannot be known, that would be absurd. They say only that it is ineffable, it cannot be described. Or as J. Krishnamurti put it, "the truth is a pathless path." He did not say the truth cannot be found, that there is no way to apprehend it, only that the way to it cannot be marked off by mental signposts.
So too, if The Void cannot be known, it is simply the nonexistant clothed in verbal abstraction.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
There can only exist five regular/polyhedra of "U"niverse.
The above is just one of many absolute truths humans have discovered.
The Universe may be mysterious but it is not a secret... M. Schneider
The truth exists for those who seek it, those who don't and for those who scoff at it. imho
Motivations for finding truth, absolute or relative, may vary from person to person and time to time.
Macro-infinite non-occupied space--- the true void ---has no things to be understood.
Absolute and relative truths have many things to be understood because they directly complement each aspect of special-case occupied spaces.
r6
Rr6 wrote:Many human ego-based mental-blockages are a placebo effect, security blanket.
See no truth, speak no truth, hear no truth fills the specific metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/conceptual spaces with irrational illogical lack of common sense in place of that which threatens their ego based security blanket. Out of sight out of mind.
None have ever offered any rational, logical common sense that would invalidate my givens below, and none ever will. It is far easier for many peoples ego to create false concepts as security blanket.
Trump wants to build a wall, others are happy just to create a metaphysical-1 security blanket.
...past < ( *I* ) < future......I-verse
.............( */* )............spirit-of-intent
............( *|* )......2D slice-of-time ^v
The truth exists for those who seek it, those who don't and those who scoff at it. imho
There are no things in macro-infinite non-occupied space ergo there is no things to understand about it.
Understanding and comprehension has to do with our access to metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/concepts and that is resultant of specific pattern sets of physical/energy we call human.
1} Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts ergo concepts of Space, God, Unviverse, Cats Dogs, etc.....
...spirit-1 aka spirit-of-intent.....
2} metaphysical-2, macro-infinite non-occupied space,
3} metaphysical-3, gravity ( ) ie a specific set of positive shaped space
...occupied space.....
4 } metaphsical-4, dark energy )( i.e. as specific set of negative shaped space
....occupied space........
5} physical/energy ergo observed time as a generalized as the topology of a sine-wave pattern frequency ^v^v
R. B Fuller in regards to our finite, occupied space Universe / Uni-Verse, states it this way,.." what we have is, modification/moderation of angle and frequency" Space ( ) -Time ^v^v - Space )( is represented with a texticonic symbolism of a bisected torus as follows in two variations;
1 } represent the time inversion trajectories from outer surface geodesic of gravity and from inner geodesic surface of dark energy(><)(><),
2 } represent that inside inversion define a topology of sine-wave (^v)(v^)
I believe these compose every particle of our finite, occupied space Universe.
r6
I wouldn't say the Tao Te Ching is without contrary, contradictory and absurd phrases. Also worth noting I don't speak Chinese nor do I know ancient Mandarin. There are so many translations from the original text into English and they differ in interpretation a great deal.
-- Updated November 21st, 2016, 1:10 am to add the following --
I was trying to say one plus one equals one is not "known". In the sense it is a presentation of something far more obscure. In this sense "tao" is not known.
What is spoken is merely what is spoken.
Truth is merely what is held as true under a set of distinct circumstances. The distinction is itself intangible as distinction defines what is knowable.
Felix wrote;
The Taoists do not say the "way" cannot be known, that would be absurd. They say only that it is ineffable, it cannot be described. Or as J. Krishnamurti put it, "the truth is a pathless path." He did not say the truth cannot be found, that there is no way to apprehend it, only that the way to it cannot be marked off by mental signposts.
So too, if The Void cannot be known, it is simply the nonexistant clothed in verbal abstraction.
Felix you must be eating Fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, Knowledge having a dual quality.
Absolutely Bad Knowledge of Tao Te Ching which you seem to have mistaken to be Absolutely Good Knowledge.
Ineffable; Incapable of being expressed, indescribable, (Synonym) unspeakable, my thought can not be spoken of.
-- Updated November 21st, 2016, 11:05 am to add the following --
The Taoists do not say the "way" cannot be known, that would be absurd.
What do you think saying that the "way is ineffable, it cannot be describe" mean?
'The Void' is simply one of several words Man has used over the years to describe the part of the Universe which is beyond human experience/comprehension. Other words used were/are: the Abstract, the Tao, God, the Spirit, dark matter, dark energy, cosmic consciousness, 'the other side', and so on. It's a quite logical concept, once one admits that most of the Universe must be outside the boundaries of our ability to cognize it.
'The Void' is simply another attempt to describe that which cannot really be described....
What you say about the Void is True, well partially True.
I will have to say that I believe you to be both correct and incorrect.
I say that the Void has yet to be described, not that it is indescribable.
There is good reason that the Void has yet to be described, by described, I mean “spoken of” which means to be given a Name.
A Name is used to give definition, shape, form, design, to whatever it is, that exists in the material, the physical sense of the word.
Ye, Amen RA!, make it so.
Only a material Reality can be given a Name; the Void not being a material Reality.
Prior to the beginning of Creation, Time, Space, Motion did not exist, well actually they did but not so as to be recognizable as such.
In the Beginning before the existence of the First Singularity to have relative, a numerical value of One-1, nothing had relative, numerical value. Everything existed as a singularity having no relative, numerical value, there being only Darkness upon the Deep.
Time was undifferentiated; not until time became differentiated did time have meaning; the meaning of Time being, motion in Time, Time existing without beginning or end, Time existing only as the Reality of the Moment, the Here an Now; the only thing than could be said of Time is that Now is the Time; the Here and now is the only Time that exists, "Now is the Time.
Space was also undifferentiated as was motion, Space existing as an undifferentiated Singularity; First Motion, motion in the beginning had no displacement, no angular momentum, no velocity of Speed and Direct, Motion in Time and Space was meaningless; the motion of a Singularity being without meaning, existing as the insignificant innate inner motion of a Singularity; as a vibration, an oscillation; a Singularity alone in the Emptiness making a humming sound; OHM, OHM, OHM.
The Reality of Everything existing as an Omniscient State of Singularity, filled with an unnamed quantity of Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularities having no relative, numerical value.
Existence requires that an entity be readily apparent, be measurable as to location and momentum within Space-Time; Space Time being defined as being, having, seven dimensions in order to be defined as being a Reality.
The Sun rules over the Reality of the Physical Universe, The whole of the Physical Universe as seen in the Light of Day;
“Ye, Amen RA” make it so!
Time having three Dimensions, Space having three dimension an Motion having but a single, One-Dimension.
The Higgs Boson Particle, the God Particle, being defined a being the minutest particle in the Universe; the most minute particle in the Universe being an Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularity existing as a quantity of Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularities have no relative, numerical value.
Existing within the Omniscience of the Transcendental (Metaphysical) Fully Random Quantum State of Singularity filled with an untold, unspoken of, quantity, number of Infinity Finite Indivisible Singularities having no relative, numerical value, having a numerical value of Zero-0.
There are many Realities that are not readily apparent, not measurable as to location and momentum in Space-Time that do exist.
Reality has become confused because not all knowledge is of a Reality is readily apparent, is measurable as to location and momentum in Space-Time; the problem being that we accept the Knowledge of Reality as being absolutely Good Knowledge when in fact much of our knowledge of Reality is Flawed, is actually Absolutely Bad Knowledge.
There are two accepted sources of Knowledge, however only one is the source of Absolutely Good Knowledge, the Truth.
Experience being the primary source of Knowledge, with Reason being the second source of Knowledge, however Reason, Rationalization, being the Source of Knowledge having a dual Quality, the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
In Speaking of the Knowledge of a Reality that is not readily apparent, that can not experienced, that is not measurable as to location and momentum in Space-Time, is an abomination; we end up speaking with a forked tongue, we become two faced, we must incorrectly determine that the Reality of the Void is incomprehensible.
I said: The Taoists do not say the "way" cannot be known, that would be absurd.
Wayne92587: What do you think saying that the "way is ineffable, it cannot be described" means?
Just what it implies: you can apprehend something but be unable to comprehend it, perceive it but be unable to define and describe it. You can even follow it without understanding (intellectually) what it is you are following, only that it is good and just to do so. Like love for instance, if one needed to understand it before one could feel it, no one would know it.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Absolute and relative truths have many things to be understood because they directly complement each aspect of special-case occupied spaces.
If macro-infinite non-occupied space exists, then it too is an absolute truth yet has no relative truth relationship to our finite, occupied space Universe.
Macro-infinite non-occupied space......( finite occupied space ).....Macro-infinite non-occupied space
True void.......( occupied space ).......True Void
.........finite set of metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/conceptual truths.......
There can only exist five regular/polyhedra of "U"niverse.
The above is just one of many absolute truths humans have discovered.
The Universe may be mysterious but it is not a secret... M. Schneider
The truth exists for those who seek it, those who don't and for those who scoff at it. imho
Motivations for finding truth, absolute or relative, may vary from person to person and time to time.
Macro-infinite non-occupied space--- the true void ---has no things to be understood.
Many human ego-based mental-blockages are a placebo effect, security blanket.
See no truth, speak no truth, hear no truth fills the specific metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/conceptual spaces with irrational illogical lack of common sense in place of that which threatens their ego based security blanket. Out of sight out of mind.
None have ever offered any rational, logical common sense that would invalidate my givens below, and none ever will. It is far easier for many peoples ego to create false concepts as security blanket.
Trump wants to build a wall, others are happy just to create a metaphysical-1 security blanket.
...past < ( *I* ) < future......I-verse
.............( */* )............spirit-of-intent
............( *|* )......2D slice-of-time ^v
The truth exists for those who seek it, those who don't and those who scoff at it. imho
There are no things in macro-infinite non-occupied space ergo there is no things to understand about it.
Understanding and comprehension has to do with our access to metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/concepts and that is resultant of specific pattern sets of physical/energy we call human.
1} Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts ergo concepts of Space, God, Unviverse, Cats Dogs, etc.....
...spirit-1 aka spirit-of-intent.....
2} metaphysical-2, macro-infinite non-occupied space,
3} metaphysical-3, gravity ( ) ie a specific set of positive shaped space
...occupied space.....
4 } metaphysical-4, dark energy )( i.e. as specific set of negative shaped space
....occupied space........
5} physical/energy ergo observed time as a generalized as the topology of a sine-wave pattern frequency ^v^v
R. B Fuller in regards to our finite, occupied space Universe / Uni-Verse, states it this way,.." what we have is, modification/moderation of angle and frequency" Space ( ) -Time ^v^v - Space )( is represented with a texticonic symbolism of a bisected torus as follows in two variations;
1 } represent the time inversion trajectories from outer surface geodesic of gravity and from inner geodesic surface of dark energy(><)(><),
2 } represent that inside inversion define a topology of sine-wave (^v)(v^)
I believe these compose every particle of our finite, occupied space Universe.
r6
Spiral Out wrote:The concept of meaning is entirely subjective. I think the Universe, and existence itself, is utterly meaningless without also considering the Void and trying to understand its seemingly paradoxical nature.
There are many illogical concepts in the Universe. I find the idea of the Void less illogical than most. The idea of religion is highly illogical yet the vast majority of the Earth's population follow it without question. It's simply a case of fear that people reject the Void. But I say the Void offers more of a chance to live again than any religion, and that idea is rooted in logic.
The thing we know as the Universe will presumably exist forever (as it relates to our conception of time). Time exists in the universe. Space exists in the Universe. Matter exists in the Universe. Nothing exists in the Void. The Void is not an objective thing or place. It is a subjective state of timelessness, space-lessness and matter-lessness.
An eternity of time passed before you came to be. But to you there was no time that had passed. You were in the Void and could not experience time. But here you are now in the Universe experiencing time and space and matter. For whatever reason you can attribute to your existence right now, other than religious concepts, you can also attribute to there being another point in time in the Universe where it will occur again.
How many events can occur in the Universe in an eternity? All of them, right?
Pretty deep, especially the last part. One of the meanings of eternity is "beyond time." I suppose you could interpret it any way you want. It's all subjective, as you mentioned.
When I read your ideas on the void, I'm thinking "tao" - no way to describe "the way" of the universe. My way is unique from yours.
Another part of me wonders if you're just thinking of your "nothing box."
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
