Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Wayne92587
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Wayne92587 »

Felix my post was to question your #622
The Taoists do not say the "way" cannot be known, that would be absurd. They say only that it is ineffable, it cannot be described. Or as J. Krishnamurti put it, "the truth is a pathless path." He did not say the truth cannot be found, that there is no way to apprehend it, only that the way to it cannot be marked off by mental signposts.
So too, if The Void cannot be known, it is simply the nonexistant clothed in verbal abstraction.
Just what it implies: you can apprehend something but be unable to comprehend it, perceive it but be unable to define and describe it. You can even follow it without understanding (intellectually) what it is you are following, only that it is good and just to do so. Like love for instance, if one needed to understand it before one could feel it, no one would know it.
In which case you can not have knowledge of Toa.

The problem is Felix, that the Tao, the Void, God, are nonexistence Clothed in verbal abstraction.

Anytime that you speak of the Sacred the results is an Abomination, Abstraction.
An abstraction not being a material Reality is not readily apparent, is not measurable as to location and momentum in Space Time.

Knowledge by definition, the knowledge of a Reality is not a feeling.
if one needed to understand it before one could feel it, no one would know it.
Absolutely True , no One seems to know, understand the Void.

-- Updated November 23rd, 2016, 11:10 am to add the following --

Felix do you know where I can by a copy of Tao Te Ching by J. Krishnamurti

-- Updated November 23rd, 2016, 11:34 am to add the following --

Felix
I said: The Taoists do not say the "way" cannot be known, that would be absurd.

Wayne92587: What do you think saying that the "way is ineffable, it cannot be described" means?


That the Tao can not be spoken of, given a name can not be known.
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Felix
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Felix »

Wayne92587: The problem is that the Tao, the Void, God, are nonexistence Clothed in verbal abstraction.
Hey, that was my line, you must pay me a royalty if you intend to use it! :)

I wouldn't equate the Tao with Spiral Out's Void, Taoism is a practical not an idealist philosophy.
Felix, do you know where I can by a copy of Tao Te Ching by J. Krishnamurti
No where, he was a sage, not a scholar. But there is an interview with him entitled "Truth is a Pathless Land."
See: https://goo.gl/g6bRsX
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Wayne92587
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Wayne92587 »

You quoted him in reference to the Tao
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Spiral Out
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Spiral Out »

Newme wrote:Pretty deep, especially the last part. One of the meanings of eternity is "beyond time." I suppose you could interpret it any way you want. It's all subjective, as you mentioned.

When I read your ideas on the void, I'm thinking "tao" - no way to describe "the way" of the universe. My way is unique from yours.

Another part of me wonders if you're just thinking of your "nothing box."
That video was very entertaining.

I hold the fact that the Void defies description against an incomplete language structure. All language is solely based on existential concepts, and it is only in the negation of these concepts that we can typically begin to describe the Void. I think that is itself an incomplete method.

But I have explained how the Void is actually an infinite potential bound into a single timeless point.
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Wayne92587
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Wayne92587 »

Negation is the worst possible way to define the void, the void is the opposite of Nothing.
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Spiral Out
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Spiral Out »

Wayne92587 wrote:Negation is the worst possible way to define the void, the void is the opposite of Nothing.
Negation is just the typical way in which we ideate the Void. I expressed the Void as an infinite potential bound into a single timeless point.

Negation is the worst way to try to define the Void. I agree. Especially since our standard language has such a tough time of it.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Burning ghost »

Maybe it helps look at positives and negatives and see them as being equally interchangable? Meaning "up" and "down" are relative. By this method of relativism in looking at polar opposites they are revealed to be terms of convenience.

All language falls prey to this in one way or another.

There is an obscure term that Jung termed that fits into this area too ... cannot remember it at the moment though.

You mention "infinity". I find it interesting that Husserl refers to the development of philosophy leading into science as opening up mankind to "infinity". Science is always an infinite task never to reach completion where prehistoric "mythological" man had a cultural attitude towards the world as "finite".
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Wayne92587 »

The same thing outside the void exists within the Void, just in a different form

-- Updated November 26th, 2016, 12:18 pm to add the following --

The Heavens and the Earth prior to the beginning of Creative Process, the Reality of Everything, existed as a Omniscient State of Quantum Singularity, existed in a different form than it did after the Beginning of Creation.

In the Beginning, the Reality of Everting exist as substance that had no mass; Pure Unadulterated Energy from which the Heavens and the Earth, the Universe, the Reality of Everything that exists in the Material sense of the Word was born of.
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The Beast
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by The Beast »

It is a test to the endurance of any mind to take notice of any underlying psychical ferment as it works its way to rationality. The recipe is thickened with the allusions of new thought and magic. Biological conditions are expressed in a downward causation irreducible to microphysical facts. However, what reality is, depends on such elaborate web. I postulate that any experience is based on time. Therefore; is time part of the Void? Being and not Being is the Ouroboros. The struggle of opposites. From this struggle, new ontological forms emerge. I do not see a problem in the collective undertaking of Evolution to explain the cycle of life and death. It is in the personal psyche where the potential is the belief. We are transformers of energies capable of changing future forms. What remains after the life force is gone is the transformed energy of our thoughts and actions. The energy of chicken meat transformed in thoughts about the Void. I wish to tie all my good thoughts in the line of days. How would the energy of thought transcend as anything other than what it represents? At the bottom of the ladder is the chicken feed.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Burning ghost »

Beast -

How long have you been practicing?
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Newme
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Newme »

Spiral Out wrote:
Newme wrote:Pretty deep, especially the last part. One of the meanings of eternity is "beyond time." I suppose you could interpret it any way you want. It's all subjective, as you mentioned.

When I read your ideas on the void, I'm thinking "tao" - no way to describe "the way" of the universe. My way is unique from yours.

Another part of me wonders if you're just thinking of your "nothing box."
That video was very entertaining.

I hold the fact that the Void defies description against an incomplete language structure. All language is solely based on existential concepts, and it is only in the negation of these concepts that we can typically begin to describe the Void. I think that is itself an incomplete method.

But I have explained how the Void is actually an infinite potential bound into a single timeless point.
Glad you liked that video.
Yeah, infinite potential is my impression of the void.
A while back, you mentioned the need to economize effort, to apply just enough exertion but not too much to whatever we're doing.
I realize that in theory the void may be "infinite potential" - but in practice, we all have limited time, energy etc.
So, how would you say this idea fits into your void hypothesis?
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Spiral Out
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Spiral Out »

Newme wrote:I realize that in theory the void may be "infinite potential" - but in practice, we all have limited time, energy etc.
So, how would you say this idea fits into your void hypothesis?
To reiterate my main point:

"The thing we know as the Universe will presumably exist forever (as it relates to our conception of time). Time exists in the universe. Space exists in the Universe. Matter exists in the Universe. Nothing exists in the Void. The Void is not an objective thing or place. It is a subjective state of timelessness, space-lessness and matter-lessness.

An eternity of time passed before you came to be. But to you there was no time that had passed. You were in the Void and could not experience time. But here you are now in the Universe experiencing time and space and matter. For whatever reason you can attribute to your existence right now, other than religious concepts, you can also attribute to there being another point in time in the Universe where it will occur again.

How many events can occur in the Universe in an eternity? All of them, right?"


The fact that the Universe and the Void are realized simultaneously and parallel to each other means that there is time parallel to timelessness, and each is subjectively "measured".

"Time doesn't move. What "moves" is the process of the change of states (∆S). Time is a measure of ∆S.

The reason we cannot use time to measure (the movement of) time is primarily because time doesn't move, and also because time is merely a measure and not itself a process. Without the process of a change in state then time would be imperceptible. So we could measure time with ∆S.

So then the question is "what units of measure would we use"? Well since all other units of measure are arbitrary constructs, we could use any unit of measure we wanted. We could call them 'seconds'. But now we're right back to "time".

"Measuring time" is a redundancy."


"Time is a perception of ∆S (∆ = "change in" or "difference of" / S = "State" (not necessarily entropy) - change of state: a difference in sensory input and response, i.e. position, temperature, sound, light, color and thus emotion, thought, expression, etc.)

Time isn't a process, it's the perception of a process. Time itself doesn't exist, only the perception of the process of ∆S for which we have created an abstract measurement of."
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...non-occupied space...(^v)(v^)...non-occupied space

Post by Rr6 »

r6--
Macro-infinite, non-occupied space--- aka the true void ---has no things to be understood.
...1...............5.....7............11.......outer surface of torus { gravity convex positive shape }

0........v............6..........v..................v....frequency aka observed sine-wave of time defines inside body of torus
..........3...........^..........9............. ^.....^ frequency aka observed sine-wave of time defines inside body of torus

......2......4..............8......10.....inner surface of torus { dark energy negative shape }


0, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27, 30, 33, 36

3-6-9..............3 electron types and 3 anti-electron types { total 6 } 9{in theory} types of gluon{ 8 in nature }

12-15-18......18 quarks and 18 anti-quarks

21-24-27.....

30-33-36.....36 total kinds of quark { see above 18 + 18 }

If we disregard #0{ non-counting number } #1 some not even consider it a prime and #2 the only even prime number, and begin with prime #3, then we can see there is a hexagon defined by 3, 5, 7, 9, 8, 4 with #6 off-set from center although still inside as nucleus.

So, #6 is not the odd ball out rather it is the odd-ball that is a even number nodal event. It divides by both 2 and 3.

So we have these 7 nodal events.

3 on observed sine-wave reality of time....3-6-9

2 on gravity.................................................5-7

2 on dark energy.........................................4-8

3-6-9 is on on inside of torus--- as triangulation ---, but also include our abstract hexagons surface primeter

5-7-4-8 involve only the hexagon perimeter and not observed time or nucleus #6.

r6
There can only exist five regular/polyhedra of "U"niverse.
The above is just one of many absolute truths humans have discovered.
The Universe may be mysterious but it is not a secret... M. Schneider
The truth exists for those who seek it, those who don't and for those who scoff at it. imho
Motivations for finding truth, absolute or relative, may vary from person to person and time to time.
Absolute and relative truths have many things to be understood because they directly complement each aspect of special-case occupied spaces.
Many human ego-based mental-blockages are a placebo effect, security blanket.
See no truth, speak no truth, hear no truth fills the specific metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/conceptual spaces with irrational illogical lack of common sense in place of that which threatens their ego based security blanket. Out of sight out of mind.
None have ever offered any rational, logical common sense that would invalidate my givens below, and none ever will. It is far easier for many peoples ego to create false concepts as security blanket.
Trump wants to build a wall, others are happy just to create a metaphysical-1 security blanket.
...past < ( * I * ) < future......I-verse
.............( * / * )............spirit-of-intent
............( * | * )......2D slice-of-time ^v
The truth exists for those who seek it, those who don't and those who scoff at it. imho
There are no things in macro-infinite non-occupied space ergo there is no things to understand about it.
Understanding and comprehension has to do with our access to metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/concepts and that is resultant of specific pattern sets of physical/energy we call human.
1} Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts ergo concepts of Space, God, Unviverse, Cats Dogs, etc.....
...spirit-1 aka spirit-of-intent.....
2} metaphysical-2, macro-infinite non-occupied space,
3} metaphysical-3, gravity ( ) ie a specific set of positive shaped space
...occupied space.....
4 } metaphsical-4, dark energy )( i.e. as specific set of negative shaped space
....occupied space........
5} physical/energy ergo observed time as a generalized as the topology of a sine-wave pattern frequency ^v^v
R. B Fuller in regards to our finite, occupied space Universe / Uni-Verse, states it this way,.." what we have is, modification/moderation of angle and frequency"
Space ( ) -Time ^v^v - Space )( is represented with a texticonic symbolism of a bisected torus as follows in two variations;
1 } represent the time inversion trajectories from outer surface geodesic of gravity and from inner geodesic surface of dark energy ( >< )( >< ),
2 } represent that inside inversion define a topology of sine-wave ( ^v )( v^ )
I believe these compose every particle of our finite, occupied space Universe.
r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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The Beast
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by The Beast »

Using the Kantian difference between analytical and synthetical judgement I formulate: Giving potential to the Void is an augmentative judgement as the identity (the Void) is cogitated.
(Kant) The principle of anticipation of perception is: In all phenomena the real, that which is an object of sensation, has intensive Quantity, or a Degree.
So, I could use Kantian thought to express that the cogitation of the Void is a pure intuition entirely within the mind. The gradual transition from empirical consciousness to pure consciousness is however not possible. How could it be possible?? If this is true the Void exist only as intuition of the mind just as Dante’s intuitions. The connection of Perceptions is faulty at best since “all change is continuous” The question of existence is properly answered for that which exists does change. New principles of psychic nature are needed to recognize the mind as being and not being. Perhaps in a new philosophy of Time. The Nature of Change.
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Newme
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Newme »

Spiral Out wrote:
Newme wrote:I realize that in theory the void may be "infinite potential" - but in practice, we all have limited time, energy etc.
So, how would you say this idea fits into your void hypothesis?
To reiterate my main point:

"The thing we know as the Universe will presumably exist forever (as it relates to our conception of time). Time exists in the universe. Space exists in the Universe. Matter exists in the Universe. Nothing exists in the Void. The Void is not an objective thing or place. It is a subjective state of timelessness, space-lessness and matter-lessness.

An eternity of time passed before you came to be. But to you there was no time that had passed. You were in the Void and could not experience time. But here you are now in the Universe experiencing time and space and matter. For whatever reason you can attribute to your existence right now, other than religious concepts, you can also attribute to there being another point in time in the Universe where it will occur again.
of."
Thanks for explaining.
If I understand you correctly, the void is essentially the space in which gives us an opportunity to exist, to think and act - for us is finite - but the void as applied universally is infinite.
It's as if we're in a bubble - the void provides this space, maintaining subjectivity, even though there's plenty of other void influence besides our own experience of it.
Within this bubble are all kinds of possibilities - all originating from mental focus. Do you think that our own void subjectivity is purely independent - or interdependent with others?

I was reading: "The Unified Field — the zero point vacuum of spacetime — is infinite in its energy potential. Quantum physics tells us that every quantum particle has an infinite potential of possibilities as to when and where it will manifest (and only comes into local manifestation, or "collapses the probability field", when we put our attention on it — the consciousness/energy interplay). Quantum physics also theorizes that contained within every cubic centimeter (a mere small sugar cube in size) there is an approximate energy density/mass of 1094 grams (10 with 94 zeros following it). That's 39 orders-of-magnitude more mass/energy than the entire known Universe in every cubic centimeter! Suffice it to say, when you add up all the cubic centimeters that make up the entire known Universe the total amount of energy is of such an incomprehensible magnitude we might as well consider it infinite."

Considering this is a metaphysics subforum, I'm interested in your interpretation of the above and if you believe that we can influence and move energy through our minds and bodies.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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