Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Spiral Out
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Spiral Out »

Newme wrote:Thanks for explaining.

If I understand you correctly, the void is essentially the space in which gives us an opportunity to exist, to think and act - for us is finite - but the void as applied universally is infinite. It's as if we're in a bubble - the void provides this space, maintaining subjectivity, even though there's plenty of other void influence besides our own experience of it. Within this bubble are all kinds of possibilities - all originating from mental focus.
No, the Void is nothing. It the absence of space, time, matter or anything else you can imagine. It's not the anti-Universe. It's not empty space. It's not a vacuum. It's nothing.

With the Void (nothing) parallel to the Universe (something) it creates a 'tension' between them. It is the Universe that gives the Void its infinite potential.
Newme wrote:Do you think that our own void subjectivity is purely independent - or interdependent with others?
The nothingness of the Void renders the concepts of independent and interdependent absolutely meaningless.
Newme wrote:I was reading: "The Unified Field — the zero point vacuum of spacetime — is infinite in its energy potential. Quantum physics tells us that every quantum particle has an infinite potential of possibilities as to when and where it will manifest (and only comes into local manifestation, or "collapses the probability field", when we put our attention on it — the consciousness/energy interplay). Quantum physics also theorizes that contained within every cubic centimeter (a mere small sugar cube in size) there is an approximate energy density/mass of 1094 grams (10 with 94 zeros following it). That's 39 orders-of-magnitude more mass/energy than the entire known Universe in every cubic centimeter! Suffice it to say, when you add up all the cubic centimeters that make up the entire known Universe the total amount of energy is of such an incomprehensible magnitude we might as well consider it infinite."

Considering this is a metaphysics subforum, I'm interested in your interpretation of the above and if you believe that we can influence and move energy through our minds and bodies.
Are you referring to telekinesis?

I just had the following conversation about an idea concerning the Void in another topic:
UniversalAlien wrote:Spiral Out wrote:
The absurdity of the question of "why does existence exist" and the statement that "non-existence cannot exist" if found in the shortcomings of the language used to express these ideas..........
What other language could be used to ask philosophical questions ?

I could imagine a mind or minds somewhere in the universe that might be thinking differently than Humans
- but Humans would have a hard time understanding them - maybe quantum computers of the future will open the door
- Meantime, as you say, we are limited by language.

And maybe it is the very 'absurdity' of expecting logical answers to questions that are impossible to answer in an absolute sense, one of the things that makes philosophy interesting :idea:
We could try using the language of mathematics.
Spiral Out wrote:The Universe ("existence") of course, does exist. It does so because an observer of this universe can form this very concept. We can also say the Void "exists" (for lack of a better word in a faulty and incomplete language) because an observer (obviously not direct observation) can form this concept as well.
The Universe could be expressed as a value of a number greater than 1 and the Void could be expressed as a value of 0. A classic binary existence and non-existence. It is fundamentally a binary state, for the most part anyway.

However, we can think of existence in varying degrees or forms as concepts, processes, objects and the amalgam of these three states as entities.

Humans are entities comprised of concepts (mind), processes (thought) and objects (body). Perhaps concepts could be represented as a 0.15, processes as a 0.23 and objects as a 0.62 and entities as a 1.00. But any number greater than 0 would indicate existence.

Zero is a concept we can understand and accept. It represents a value of nothing; an absence of value. We can also consider the Void as such.
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Wayne92587 »

Felix 632;
I wouldn't equate the Tao with Spiral Out's Void, Taoism is a practical not an idealist philosophy.
Wayne ; It is questionable even among Taoist as to what Taoism is, a Philosophy or a Religion or the Way of Mother Nature.

Taoism is none of these. Taoism was created to cause the Evolution of the psychic, the mind and body, the spirit and the Flesh, Masculinity and Femininity, That which is above and that which is below, the purpose of Taoism is the make Man, Mankind, he and she whole, One.
Spiral Out 634;
I hold the fact that the Void defies description against an incomplete language structure. All language is solely based on existential concepts, and it is only in the negation of these concepts that we can typically begin to describe the Void. I think that is itself an incomplete method.

But I have explained how the Void is actually an infinite potential bound into a single timeless point.

Wayne;
That is true, “nothingness” and the Void are the same thing, substance, they being a substance that has no mass, which exists as pure unadulterated Energy.

The same thing that exists outside, separate and distinct, from the void exists within the Void, just in a different form, the Void encompassing both Material, physical and the non-material, spiritual Realities, the Void, the emptiness of the void itself not being readily apparent, not being measurable as to location and Momentum.

The Void existing as a State or Condition was not the same before the beginning moment of Creation; the Void, in the Beginning, Emptiness of the Void, Nothingness existing as a Singular Substance having no mass, has no material worth, existed as pure unadulterated Energy in the form of an unspoken of quantity of Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularities, said motion being an insignificant innate, internal, eternal, motionless motion, vibration, oscillation causing a particle of Energy to make a humming sound; OHM!

A Singularity alone in the Emptiness of the Void having a dual quality, a Singularity of Energy existing and not existing; Existence under normal circumstance being that of a Substance having Mass, existing as a material, physical Reality; a particle of Energy existing yet having no Mass, existing without existing.

Motionless motion, a vibration, an oscillation of a Singular Particle although having a dual quality, exists without displacement, not having velocity of speed and direction, as a substance that had no Mass encompassing not only the non-material, the Spiritual, World of Reality but also the material World of Reality.

The Void empty of any material Reality existed as the Transcendental (Metaphysical) Fully Random State of Quantum Singularity, filled with an unknown quantity of Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularities having no mass, having no relative, numerical value.

The Void is not the best metaphor to use in speaking of that which existed prior to the Beginning moment of Creation;
Nothingness is better but is still not good enough to speak of said State or Condition.

The terminology to use in describing that which is and is not is to say that whatever it is it does and does not exist.

The Proper terminology for the Void, the nothingness, after the beginning moment of the Creation being the “Universe”.

Yes, the Universe had a beginning.

In the Beginning, at the Zero-0 hour, something existed, it was non-material, that which existed in the beginning could only be described as both existing and not-existing, but not positive and negative, as existing yet having no mass.

That which existed in the beginning was a Singularity having a dual quality.

Pure Energy exists as a Singularity having no mass, is not readily apparent, is not measurable as to location and momentum.

Time, Space, and Motion existed in the beginning as a Singularity; after the beginning moment of creation, Singularity spontaneously issued forth having a Dual Quality.

Even now the only time that exists is the Here and Now, the Reality of the moment, Now is the Time.

Existing as a Singularity, motion had no angular momentum, no velocity of speed and direction meaning a Singularity is motionless, stationary, dead in the water, Time did not change, was eternal, everlasting, as was Space and Motion.



The proper terminology of Nothingness, like the Void “is” Something; is a substance that has no mass, yet carries energy.

Energy exists but energy has no mass, Energy being the Nature of what exists within the Void, Nothingness.
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Burning ghost »

Spiral -

You name it as "x" so it has value. Do you not see this? Are you aVOIDing this obviousness?

You are simply struggling with the concept of infinity. This arises from hatibualised empiricism combined with instinctual judgements. Meaning we see a table and call it a table. We do not see a table and measure its "tableness" then call it 80% table and 20% foot stool. This kind of thinking is the habit and overextention of empirical thought.

I will refer to Kant again. We know of noumenon in the negative sense not the positive sense. The "void" is negatively known because it is not possible to positively hold noumenon (to be other than you are without becoming something else). We cannot know the void it is simply an expression of negation. It is much like saying everything is nothing, which is the same as saying nothing is everything. By this all we do is reveal a trick of language and if we look more deeply the non-difference of subjectivity and objectivity (because we can only ever know something objectively as a subjective being. It is a dichotomy of cognitive convenience professed through language in order to navigate existence - it is existence).
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Spiral Out
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Spiral Out »

Burning ghost wrote:You name it as "x" so it has value. Do you not see this? Are you aVOIDing this obviousness?
What value? Naming a concept has no bearing on its nature, it does not change it into a different idea.
You are simply struggling with the concept of infinity. This arises from hatibualised empiricism combined with instinctual judgements. Meaning we see a table and call it a table. We do not see a table and measure its "tableness" then call it 80% table and 20% foot stool. This kind of thinking is the habit and overextention of empirical thought.
I don't know anyone who doesn't struggle with the concept of infinity. It is a difficult concept to fathom. I don't equate the Void directly or solely to infinity alone.

The Void is my attempt to understand my mortality, my existence, my potential future(s) (not to necessarily indicate reincarnation), my consciousness and what may be possible. It's an inquiry into the unknown. It's a philosophical journey into life and death.
I will refer to Kant again. We know of noumenon in the negative sense not the positive sense. The "void" is negatively known because it is not possible to positively hold noumenon (to be other than you are without becoming something else). We cannot know the void it is simply an expression of negation. It is much like saying everything is nothing, which is the same as saying nothing is everything. By this all we do is reveal a trick of language and if we look more deeply the non-difference of subjectivity and objectivity (because we can only ever know something objectively as a subjective being. It is a dichotomy of cognitive convenience professed through language in order to navigate existence - it is existence).
I agree with your assessment of language but not your assessment of objectivity and subjectivity. They are starkly different. Objectivity indicates that there is consideration of something absent any bias, judgement, emotion, partiality and prejudice.

"Generally, objectivity means the state or quality of being 'true' even outside of a subject's individual biases, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings." I doubt, or I at least question the concept of truth. I view truth as an entirely mutable thing. It is not unchanging from person to person. There is always personal emotion, bias and judgement attached to any observation. So-called objectivity is a self-delusion that one is able to see past one's own limited senses.

The Void is no different. It is not the truth. It is not objective. It is an attempt to venture into the unknown.
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Wayne92587 »

The Void does not deserve a Negative connotation.

Spiral out, of course you have to venture into the unknown to talk about the Unknown, Infinity, after all before the beginning moment before the beginning of Creation there was only Darkness upon the Deep; darkness being a metaphor for that which does not exist in the material sense of the word, that exists as a non-materiality, that is immaterial, a state or condition in where that which exists is not readily apparent, is not measurable as to location and momentum within the Void, the Darkness, the State or condition known as nothingness, that which exists in the Darkness of the Deep.

The Definition of something that is infinite is a substance that is not readily apparent, is not measurable as to location and momentum, a substance that has no mass, the existence or non-existence of the Infinite being “Uncertain”.

I can show you a physical example of an object that is infinite; I doubt however that you care enough to go to the trouble to understand the meaning of "infinite" to go to the trouble to find out, the truth about the Infinite.

Take 8 mirrors at least 8 inches square and form an octagon with the reflective side to the inside.
Place a dot in the canter of one of the mirrors (a mirror being able to reflect whatever is before it) and observe the dot from outside the Octagon and you will see a secession of dots in one of the mirrors, the dot in a series becoming smaller and smaller, to the point where the dot is no longer readily apparent, the finite dot becoming Infinite, no longer measurable as to location and momentum within the mirror.

The Infinite is a description of something finite that is not readily apparent, that has no mass, is not measurable as to location and momentum within whatever medium; in order to attain knowledge of the infinite one must enter into the Darkness that is upon the deep, into the unknown, the unknowable.

Hermes Trismegistus, Lord of the Ring, Keeper of the Holy Grail---->0!

Ye, Amen RA! make it so!

-- Updated December 6th, 2016, 10:28 am to add the following --

"The Unified Field — the zero point vacuum of spacetime — is infinite in its energy potential. Quantum physics tells us that every quantum particle has an infinite potential of possibilities as to when and where it will manifest (and only comes into local manifestation, or "collapses the probability field", when we put our attention on it —
Newme ; If I understand you correctly, the void is essentially the space in which gives us an opportunity to exist, to think and act - for us is finite - but the void as applied universally is infinite.

Wayne;

There is more to the Void than simply being Space. The Void is Space only in the sense that that Reality exists within the Void, both Material and non-Material Reality; a non-material Reality simply not being readily apparent.

The Reason that a non-material, an immaterial, a spiritual Reality is not readily apparent is that an Immaterial Reality has no relative, numerical value, has no angular momentum, no displacement, not velocity of speed and direction.

The motion of a material Reality is not the same as the Motion of an Immaterial Reality.

A material Reality has displacement, angular momentum, velocity of speed and direction, an Immaterial Reality does not, having not relative, numerical value.

The Reality of the Void itself not being readily apparent, not being measurable as to location and momentum, the existence or non-existence of the Void being Uncertain.

Sprial Out;
The Void is nothing. It the absence of space, time, matter or anything else you can imagine. It's not the anti-Universe. It's not empty space. It's not a vacuum. It's nothing. We need to recognize the mind as being and non-being.



Wayne;

The Void does not exist only as an intuition of the Mind, the Knowledge of the Reality of the Void does however exist as the subjectivity of the mind; the knowledge of the Void, is not the Reality of the Void, is born of the intuitive nature of the Rational Mind, imagination.

The Void exists whether we know of it or not.

-- Updated December 8th, 2016, 6:50 am to add the following --

The mind is a non-being only in the sense that consciousness, has no material Reality; the mind is and is not a substance, Consciousness existing yet having no mass; the existence or non-existence consciousness being "Uncertain".

Having no mass the Mind, Consciousness, does and does not exist, exists as a Spiritual Reality; It could be said that the mind, consciousness is the Immortal Soul, is a living soul, an Individuality.
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

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Spiral Out wrote:No, the Void is nothing. It the absence of space, time, matter or anything else you can imagine. It's not the anti-Universe. It's not empty space. It's not a vacuum. It's nothing.

With the Void (nothing) parallel to the Universe (something) it creates a 'tension' between them. It is the Universe that gives the Void its infinite potential.

The nothingness of the Void renders the concepts of independent and interdependent absolutely meaningless.
Hi Spiral, How have you been?
At the risk of beating a dead horse, but with the hope of looking at the horse from other perspectives...
It seems that all existence is based on consciousness which is based on relativity - relationships.
I can imagine empty space by which all things happen - but it's not empty in the sense of no activity going on - just invisible - like thoughts and energy.
I like the idea of nothing and something creating tension - I think that might be a way of explaining conscious energy.
Are you referring to telekinesis?
Not that extreme - but to an extent - metaphysically - as Leibniz suggested with monads (based on perception) being the basis of all existence.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Wayne92587 »

Newme what makes you think that existence is base on consciousness?????

Not so, the Knowledge of existence is base on consciousness, but existence itself exists independent of Consciousness; knowledge, consciousness, of existence is not existence itself!
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Atreyu »

The Void is where the Universe "goes to" when it ceases to "exist", or rather, the Void is what the Universe becomes when it apparently ceases to exist.

However, the best way to understand the Void is to understand that the Universe Itself is a Conscious entity. The Void is what happens to the Universe when it falls asleep....
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Wayne92587 »

The Void is that from which the Universe was, is being, created, with the Universe in part returning to the Void.

The Universe as a whole will continue to exist "forever," shall Eternally Exist, is Infinite.
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Rr6 »

Biological nervous systems sleep. Universe does not sleep.

Our finite, occupied space Universe, exists eternally as dynamic set of three primary aspects:

1} Space ( ) i.e. positive shaped gravitational space,

2} time ergo frequency of sine-wave topology ^v ^v or as \/\/\,

3} Space )( i.e. negative shaped dark energy space.

Relatively simple set to grasp. imho a cosmically primary threeness.

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Spiral Out »

Newme wrote:At the risk of beating a dead horse, but with the hope of looking at the horse from other perspectives...
It seems that all existence is based on consciousness which is based on relativity - relationships.
I can imagine empty space by which all things happen - but it's not empty in the sense of no activity going on - just invisible - like thoughts and energy.
I like the idea of nothing and something creating tension - I think that might be a way of explaining conscious energy.
What is existence unless it is experienced? Nothing! Particularly to that which is not experiencing anything.
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Re: Mutual Means Hypothesis - Understanding The Void

Post by Wayne92587 »

Sprial Out, What is existence unless it is experienced? Nothing!
Absolutely True; that is the dilemma.

The Heavens and the Earth, the Universe, the Reality of Everything that exists in the Material, Physical sense of the Word was born of Nothingness, which does "exist" by the way!
It does appear to be paradoxical, make that Insane, no just Irrational, however it can be explained.
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