So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Belinda
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Belinda »

Aristocles, by 'axis' I meant to say and claim that the objective/subjective is not a relationship but a dichotomy.

The success of science easily might seem to show that we can be more objective and less subjective. However I understand science as a social activity like what Kuhn does. That's to say science is inter-subjective. The ontological rock upon which science stands is human subjectivity so that each scientific theory is a heuristic device which for the duration of the theory is applicable and applied solely to the human culture and the natural environment within which that theory or worldview rests.

Human cultures of belief and practice all exist by permission of the subjects and their intersubjective agreements and permissions; even immovably traditional cultures of belief and practice exist by permission of the subjects.

True, many unique subjects of unique experience are downtrodden by dictatorial leaders who may be either revolutionaries or traditionalists. Those unfortunate downtrodden ones are less free consequently feelings and attitudes that each is a unique subject are alienated by powers that turn the people into objects to be controlled.

Aristocles wrote:
What I am saying is it appears the approach of any absolute aspect may differ from convention, namely the hard and fast distinction of subjective/objective, especially an absolute distinction.

If I tell a conspiracy story regarding the creation of objectivity and subjectivity and how it appears to be more of an attempt of the "educated" to manipulate others, then it may add to appreciation of the less distinct aspect. If we talk of how we tend to fixate upon the distinction so as to lessen others, then it may help to disengage the convention. If we explore how our "uniqueness" or equality is often a weapon for profit/control, then the deeply ingrained convention not rest as well.

For "educated" might we agree to replace it with "free"? 'Educated' sometimes is loaded with snobbery and manipulation through snobbery. Education is itself really holy and not to be confused with indoctrination. The subject, the pupil or student , is sacrosanct as a whole life subject with feelings, and the good educator doesn't treat the pupil or student as an empty vessel requiring only to be filled with knowledge or , worse , ideology.

Yes, I am aware that it's disparaging to tell someone that they are not thinking objectively. People in education or in philosophy- talking- clubs are required to be objective as much as is possible for them. Objectivity is enthroned in Bernstein's 'elaborated code' which is the language 'code' that I am using right now. I am trying to be as objective as I can because you, Aristocles, and I have an implicit agreement between us and Scott that this is how we ought to behave in Phil Club forums.
Above all however, you, I, and Scott are free people who have tried as much as we can to rid ourselves of preconceptions and to put ourselves in others' shoes. What I believe is that we could not possibly do so unless we were not only using language to communicate but also talking as subjects of our unique experiences so that we have a basis for comparison with others and consequently recognise that others are other than ourselves.

As for advertisers telling us that we are free to choose their product or not, they are liars because they well know that there is a large section of the population that lacks the ability and knowledge to see through their lies. Same goes for some politicians, some estate agents, and some marketing managers. It would be great if all people were able, from their actual stances as ontological subjects, and from their knowledge of the world, to see that some if not many other ontological subjects of experience are hostile to their wellbeing.
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Present awareness »

Without a subject, there could be no object and vica versa, the two, rest on the oneness of things. Self consciousness, arises in the mind through experience of the five senses, and an awareness of an experiencer or what we refer to as "I". The universe, and everything in it, is dependent upon this "I" for it's existence. Before your birth, you had no knowledge of the universe and billions of years passed by without notice. Suddenly (as if by magic) you are here now, and an entire universe is here with you. Where did it come from and where does it go when you die? My belief is that the universe was always here and that you were always here. All that ever happens, is forms change "within" the now but the now itself, remains unchanged.
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Sy Borg »

Present awareness wrote:Without a subject, there could be no object and vica versa, the two, rest on the oneness of things. Self consciousness, arises in the mind through experience of the five senses, and an awareness of an experiencer or what we refer to as "I". The universe, and everything in it, is dependent upon this "I" for it's existence. Before your birth, you had no knowledge of the universe and billions of years passed by without notice. Suddenly (as if by magic) you are here now, and an entire universe is here with you. Where did it come from and where does it go when you die? My belief is that the universe was always here and that you were always here. All that ever happens, is forms change "within" the now but the now itself, remains unchanged.
I like this perspective. It's useful for analytical purposes to break reality into chunks but reality is also one interconnected thing. Since we are all part of larger systems, the "I" that we relate to is necessarily incomplete. The "I" is a practical representation that's ontically misleading, being based only on memory while largely ignoring the journey that brought us to being memorising entities.

By the same token, it's said that our evolutionary family tree started with LUCA, the hypothesised first ever microorganism on Earth. Today researchers are looking for the links between geology and biology so as to produce synthetic life forms. Once the lineage of geological metamorphosis that gave rise to abiogenesis is traced, the line can be followed back to Carl Sagan's "star stuff".

Ironically, life seems to work better for us when we are immersed in the hurly burly and not quite in touch with our ontic reality, certainly in youth. Let's face it, if you live a mindful and productive life guided by principles of love, empathy and gratitude than it doesn't matter how sophisticated or goofy your philosophies are. An already loving person won't gain much from thinking about how all things are interconnected, perhaps just a "joining of the dots". However, ontic understanding on a societal scale would seem more critical; it is ultimately the political classes' weak comprehension of humanity's historical, physical and existential positions (and inability to see their own actions in that context) that has rendered our societies unsustainable.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
Belinda
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Belinda »

I quote Greta with one small but significant change:

"It's useful for analytical purposes to break reality into chunks and reality is also one interconnected thing. Since we are all part of larger systems, the "I" that we relate to is necessarily incomplete. "

Since the reality that we relate to would be incomplete if there were only subjects there has to be both subjects who relate and objects that subjects relate to, so that reality is complete.

There are living things that aren't very much subjects of experience. I'm thinking of for instance those trees that are the above ground parts of the one root system, and I am thinking of animals' tissues and animal organs that cannot naturally live unless they are integrated with the whole body system. However within the whole systems those trees, tissues and organs do strive, unconsciously of course, to exist and exist to function as cooperative parts. Therefore subjectivity is loud and clear as for humans and becomes fainter as life forms become more like lifeless forms.
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Boots »

Objectivity is just a word invented by humans to describe a lack of bias or prejudice.

Since humans are probably incapable of 'pure objectivity' it was deemed necessary to address this through the invention of words like objective and subjective.

Being aware of our subjectivity allows us to address things in a more objective way. We may not be capable of objectivity, but we are capable of being more or less subjective.
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Present awareness »

The subjective "I" is based on the illusion of unchanging self. We often "feel" that we are the same person throughout our life, even though we are continuely changing on a daily basis. We have gone from sperm and egg to fetus, then baby and child to teenager, adult to senior citizen, all the while thinking that there is something inside, which does not change, called "I" or "me". The truth is that there is nothing in existence that has unchanging self, or permanence. The best one can do, is enjoy the state one is in now, for it too will pass. If things are bad, it will not last. If things are good, it will not last. By not clinging to that which is impermanent, there is much less suffering, when it's gone.
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Belinda »

Present Awareness, I think that perhaps you confuse subjectivity with personal identity. If your claim was to apply to personal identity I'd agree with you.
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Present awareness »

You are right Belinda, I feel that personal identity is subjective, since everything that we experience, including personal identity, is unique to us, and our own subjective experience of the universe. We define ourselves, by everything which is not us (objects) which is usually considered to be everything beyond our skin.
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Belinda
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Belinda »

Present Awareness, don't you think that perhaps there is this difference between personal identity and the feeling of being the subject of experience, that personal identity always includes evaluation of oneself, whereas the feeling of being the subject of one's own experience is a lot more tenacious and perhaps only deserts one under different neurochemical conditions*** from those obtaining with loss or change of personal identity?

This is probably a matter of empirical fact or the contrary, and I bet it has already been scientifically researched.

*** e.g. mystical experiences , or artificial mind altering substances.
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Burning ghost »

Belinda -

Juat for the sake of butting in ... experiences, however induced, are experiences nevertheless. Altered States of Consciousness are states of consciousness. An uncommon experience does not detract from it being a real experience ("artiicial" is not really a fair term to use because I can have a real experience of something artificial aa mucb as I can an artificial experience of something real).
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Belinda
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Belinda »

Ghost, I do use 'experiences' as you recommend, and you are right to mention this point. For instance when someone goes to see a medical doctor or nurse, what the patient reports about what he feels are symptoms that are experienced by the patient and he cannot be disbelieved . Even if he is hallucinating he is nevertheless experiencing those hallucinations. What the doctor or nurse or pathologist experiences about that patient are not symptoms but signs which are publicly verifiable. I mention this clinical approach only to underline that in everyday life it's important to recognise that experiences, i.e. 'symptoms' are genuinely experienced by the subject, or patient.
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Grunth »

All my experiences are symptoms of a condition.
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Belinda »

Grunth wrote:All my experiences are symptoms of a condition.

Not all conditions are revealed by publicly accessible signs of them.

Only those conditions which impinge upon your organs of sense and your brain/mind are experienced by you. However some conditions that pertain to you are not directly experienced by you although they may present with publicly accessible signs, e.g. high blood pressure.

All symptoms are experienced but not all experiences are symptomatic of a pathological condition.
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Grunth »

Belinda wrote:
Grunth wrote:All my experiences are symptoms of a condition.

Not all conditions are revealed by publicly accessible signs of them.

Only those conditions which impinge upon your organs of sense and your brain/mind are experienced by you. However some conditions that pertain to you are not directly experienced by you although they may present with publicly accessible signs, e.g. high blood pressure.

All symptoms are experienced but not all experiences are symptomatic of a pathological condition.
My organs of sense, in short "I", is a condition. "I" symptomatically, the condition that is "me", impinges upon reality. Experiences of "I" are effectively hallucinations which are symptoms of this condition. The thinking brain conditions reality into categories which are usually presumed to be actual. I don't believe in the condition or its symptomatic experiences but the hallucination arises regardless. And it is terminal.
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Re: So, you are a subjectivist... What is the difference?

Post by Belinda »

Grunth I didn't know that your claim about conditions referred to the permanence of bodies. I took 'conditions' to be taking permanent mind/bodies as granted. I do agree that the feeling of being a subject of experience lasts as long as the mind/body lasts and no longer.
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