Why does Existence Exist?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Sealight
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Sealight »

Present awareness wrote:I would not say that time is motion. Time is a human concept,
I believe that everything, expressed in words or so, is just a human concept. Say, the Sun is a concept, because how we understand it and what it is in reality are two different things. Another example of a human concept would be Existence.
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Vijaydevani »

UniversalAlien wrote: "Why does Existence Exist?" Can we question the reason for existence itself :?: Or is it a totally impossible question with no hope of even a vague answer?

I will start with no opinion of my own - But would be curious if any of you had a view on this - Can we question the state of
existence itself? - And if you do, what can you come up with :?:

If existence did not exist, then there would be non-existence. Existence exists simply because it cannot be otherwise. I don't think why existence exists is a relevant question simply because without existence even the question would not exist.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
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UniversalAlien
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Vijaydevani wrote:
UniversalAlien wrote: "Why does Existence Exist?" Can we question the reason for existence itself :?: Or is it a totally impossible question with no hope of even a vague answer?

I will start with no opinion of my own - But would be curious if any of you had a view on this - Can we question the state of
existence itself? - And if you do, what can you come up with :?:

If existence did not exist, then there would be non-existence. Existence exists simply because it cannot be otherwise. I don't think why existence exists is a relevant question simply because without existence even the question would not exist.
Hard to argue with that

But somehow I keep seeing :?: :?: :?:

Like the :?: will not go away - Does existence need to question itself :?: As part of its very existence :?:

Tell me I'm never too old to learn :!:
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Vijaydevani »

UniversalAlien wrote:
Vijaydevani wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


If existence did not exist, then there would be non-existence. Existence exists simply because it cannot be otherwise. I don't think why existence exists is a relevant question simply because without existence even the question would not exist.
Hard to argue with that

But somehow I keep seeing :?: :?: :?:

Like the :?: will not go away - Does existence need to question itself :?: As part of its very existence :?:

Tell me I'm never too old to learn :!:
You are assuming that existence has a consciousness. I don't see any reason to assume that. The primary property of existence seems to be existence itself. It probably is subject to change of state which is probably how this space time universe came into being.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
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UniversalAlien
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Vijaydevani wrote:
UniversalAlien wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
Assuming :?: - And you are assuming that existence can exist without being consciousness.

I don't understand unconscious existence - To me existence is in fact always conscious

Consciousness is existence - No consciousness - no existence.

-- Updated September 29th, 2016, 11:25 pm to add the following --

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter".
-Max Planck

Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck, FRS was a German theoretical physicist whose work on quantum theory won him the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1918.
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Vijaydevani »

UniversalAlien wrote: Assuming :?: - And you are assuming that existence can exist without being consciousness.

I don't understand unconscious existence - To me existence is in fact always conscious

Consciousness is existence - No consciousness - no existence.

-- Updated September 29th, 2016, 11:25 pm to add the following --

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter".
-Max Planck

Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck, FRS was a German theoretical physicist whose work on quantum theory won him the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1918.
Self organization is an unconscious process. And consciousness seems to a product of brain activity. Attributing it to non physical entities appears a bit far fetched.

-- Updated September 30th, 2016, 2:14 pm to add the following --

Maybe you just need to focus on studying unconscious processes. It will open up the possibility of existence without consciousness. That we have it is another matter altogether. It does not mean it has always existed.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
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UniversalAlien
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Vijaydevani wrote: Self organization is an unconscious process. And consciousness seems to a product of brain activity. Attributing it to non physical entities appears a bit far fetched.

-- Updated September 30th, 2016, 2:14 pm to add the following --

Maybe you just need to focus on studying unconscious processes. It will open up the possibility of existence without consciousness. That we have it is another matter altogether. It does not mean it has always existed.
Unconscious processes :?: You have to be conscious of this so called 'unconscious processes' to postulate its existence.

Again, back to my favorite physcist of the 20th Century:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."
- Max Planck {As quoted in The Observer (25 January 1931)

"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."
- Max Planck

Put it this way; You postulate 'Unconscious processes' - but how can you prove an existent state, or unconscious processes'
without a conscious mind :?: - Your conscious mind is giving meaning and in fact consciousness to an unconscious process
- I agree with Planck, you can not get behind consciousness - No consciousness, no existence.
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Vijaydevani »

UniversalAlien wrote:
Vijaydevani wrote: Self organization is an unconscious process. And consciousness seems to a product of brain activity. Attributing it to non physical entities appears a bit far fetched.

-- Updated September 30th, 2016, 2:14 pm to add the following --

Maybe you just need to focus on studying unconscious processes. It will open up the possibility of existence without consciousness. That we have it is another matter altogether. It does not mean it has always existed.
Unconscious processes :?: You have to be conscious of this so called 'unconscious processes' to postulate its existence.

Again, back to my favorite physcist of the 20th Century:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."
- Max Planck {As quoted in The Observer (25 January 1931)

"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."
- Max Planck

Put it this way; You postulate 'Unconscious processes' - but how can you prove an existent state, or unconscious processes'
without a conscious mind :?: - Your conscious mind is giving meaning and in fact consciousness to an unconscious process
- I agree with Planck, you can not get behind consciousness - No consciousness, no existence.
I am not conscious of it. But everything seems to point in that direction. We can never be certain. But nothing suggests that the mysterious nature of nature consists of a conscious will.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
Fooloso4
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Universal Alien:
No consciousness, no existence.
No consciousness, no awareness or knowledge or talk or claims of existence. If as Planck said, we cannot get behind consciousness then we cannot affirm that without consciousness there is no existence. That is an epistemological rather than ontological claim. Failure to understand the difference leads to all kinds of confusion, nonsense, and unsubstantiated claims.
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UniversalAlien
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Fooloso4 wrote: ............Failure to understand the difference leads to all kinds of confusion, nonsense, and unsubstantiated claims.
And isn't that what philosophy is all about :?: :lol:

I think what Planck was trying to get at is the limit, the wall you come to where you can go no further.
- Again - How can you possibly comprehend or postulate an existent state
that is outside of comprehension? - If you want to say there is an incomprehensible world that exists go ahead
- But for all practical purposes it doesn't exist until it is comprehended as existing and we are conscious of it.
Fooloso4
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Fooloso4 »

UniversalAlien:
I think what Planck was trying to get at is the limit, the wall you come to where you can go no further.
But that is quite different than the claim that no consciousness no existence. It is also quite different than Planck’s claim about consciousness being fundamental. I do not know Planck’s work. When he says, as you quoted: “I regard matter as derivative from consciousness” this might mean a consciousness that gives rise to the physical world or that our concept of matter is dependent on and determined by our consciousness. Which is it?
But for all practical purposes it doesn't exist until it is comprehended as existing and we are conscious of it.
If that were true than for all practical purposes we would not explore anything beyond what we are already conscious of because it makes no sense to search for things that do not exist. In practical terms it is just the opposite. We become aware of things we did not know existed and we are then confronted with the task of trying to comprehend them.
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UniversalAlien
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by UniversalAlien »

UniversalAlien wrote:
But for all practical purposes it doesn't exist until it is comprehended as existing and we are conscious of it.

Fooloso4 replied:
If that were true than for all practical purposes we would not explore anything beyond what we are already conscious of because it makes no sense to search for things that do not exist. In practical terms it is just the opposite. We become aware of things we did not know existed and we are then confronted with the task of trying to comprehend them.
Yes and no - You make a good point But:

Do Unicorns and fanciful creatures exist? - Some people think they do - But until proven they are just fantasy.

Science searches for things and makes assumptions based upon what is known - there is a basis for enquiry and yes things
are discovered that were not known to exist - But until the existent state is established how do you know of its existence?
- how can you prove its existence? - So I still maintain "for all practical purposes it doesn't exist until it is comprehended as existing and we are conscious of it" - And can prove it.


“When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.”
― Max Planck


You might debate that statement - But actual experiments done on what is sometimes called 'the observer effect'
have proven this to be true.
Fooloso4
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Fooloso4 »

UniversalAlien:
Do Unicorns and fanciful creatures exist?
I would not recommend doing a search for them unless it was a search of fantasy literature. I’m not sure I see the point.
Science searches for things and makes assumptions based upon what is known …
Much exploration is done in a particular region or area and not for particular things.
But until the existent state is established how do you know of its existence?
You don’t, but the fact that you find it shows that its existence is not dependent upon our awareness of it. Only what we see and say and come to know about it is dependent upon our awareness.
how can you prove its existence?
You can’t but that does not mean its existence is dependent on our ability to prove its existence.
"for all practical purposes it doesn't exist until it is comprehended as existing and we are conscious of it”
I would modify this to say for some practical purposes. Consider, for example, exploratory surgery.
“When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.”
This may be true at the quantum level but not at the human or astronomical level. When I look at a star it changes nothing about it, because I am not seeing it as it is but how it was millions of years ago.
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UniversalAlien
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Fooloso4 wrote:
This may be true at the quantum level but not at the human or astronomical level. When I look at a star it changes nothing about it, because I am not seeing it as it is but how it was millions of years ago.
And in millions of years can you prove that this observation is exactly the same as it would be when observed back then
- prove that nothing has changed in the here and now that would effect the there and then :?:



“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up to now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”
― Max Planck, The Universe in the Light of Modern Physics
Fooloso4
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Fooloso4 »

And in millions of years can you prove that this observation is exactly the same as it would be when observed back then …
I would not try to prove such a thing because it is simply not true. Nothing is static and unchanging. Right now there could be things happening is distance stars that we will not know about for millions of years.
… prove that nothing has changed in the here and now that would effect the there and then
Anything approaching proof would be based on our current understanding of how things work. What change can observing something here and now change what was then and there? Since nothing like this has ever been observed the burden of proof lies with the extraordinary claim that what happens here and now can have such an effect. The ability to call something into question does not mean that it is reasonable to do so.
“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up to now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”
It would be misleading to address this without the proper context which would include what he means by physical laws. If he means laws that require things to happen in a certain way because they are controlled by laws then I might agree, but that is because I think of laws as descriptive not prescriptive. They tell us how things do behave. Can that change? Maybe, I don’t know but I suspect that any change is potentially explainable based on physical laws. I see no reason to assume that tomorrow the universe as we know it will become radically different. Can you prove that tomorrow you will not be a banana?
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