What’s your definition of free will?

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PhiloJ
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What’s your definition of free will?

Post by PhiloJ »

When discussing about concepts like free will, i find that people have different definitions of free will, so I want to see how many different definitions of free will there are.

I will start with my own definition of free will; free will is not restricted, and formed by any kind of force.

I will now explain why free will cannot exist whit this definition.

In a world where everything is predetermined, your will would have been chosen by fate, so free will cannot exist here.

In a world where everything is random, your will would be chosen randomly, so free will cannot exist here.

In a world where everything is chosen by chance, your will will depend on chance, so free will cannot exist here.
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Raspberry_Yoghurt »

What about reasons? If free will is undertermined by ANYTHING, it would seem the only true free actions are those who are completely at random with no purpose or thought behind them. Like if I just smacked myself in the face right now with my laptop for no reason at all, that would be free, but if I keep writing because I like writing, then it's not free, because my liking writing is controlling my free will.

Maybe your theory would improve it you included in it a sort of core of "personality", i.e. what the person is (hir/hers life short/long term life goals, style of thought, and so on). So this core was sort of the basis of the free will and free will couldn't change that - but it is free to do what it wants as long as it respects the personal core.
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Felix »

Raspberry_Yogurt: Like if I just smacked myself in the face right now with my laptop for no reason at all, that would be free
Um, maybe not, could make for a doctor bill.
PhiloJ: I will start with my own definition of free will; free will is not restricted, and formed by any kind of force.
Best to start with a definition that has some remote possibility of existing - I mean try creating a physical reality that would not restrict it's inhabitants wills in any way. Bet you can't do it.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Togo1 »

PhiloJ wrote:When discussing about concepts like free will, i find that people have different definitions of free will, so I want to see how many different definitions of free will there are.

I will start with my own definition of free will; free will is not restricted, and formed by any kind of force.

I will now explain why free will cannot exist whit this definition.
If the thing you've defined, can't exist by definition, then how can you claim it's a valid definition?
PhiloJ wrote:In a world where everything is predetermined, your will would have been chosen by fate, so free will cannot exist here.

In a world where everything is random, your will would be chosen randomly, so free will cannot exist here.

In a world where everything is chosen by chance, your will will depend on chance, so free will cannot exist here.
What about a world that is neither predetermined, not random?
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PhiloJ
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by PhiloJ »

Raspberry_Yoghurt wrote:What about reasons? If free will is undertermined by ANYTHING, it would seem the only true free actions are those who are completely at random with no purpose or thought behind them. Like if I just smacked myself in the face right now with my laptop for no reason at all, that would be free, but if I keep writing because I like writing, then it's not free, because my liking writing is controlling my free will.
You may have misunderstood the definition, as your will would still be controlled by randomness in that scenario.
Raspberry_Yoghurt wrote:Maybe your theory would improve it you included in it a sort of core of "personality", i.e. what the person is (hir/hers life short/long term life goals, style of thought, and so on). So this core was sort of the basis of the free will and free will couldn't change that - but it is free to do what it wants as long as it respects the personal core.
In that scenario your will would still be restricted by your core personality, and the laws of the universe.

And if i put in a personality the will would still be restricted by your personality, and the laws of the universe.
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PhiloJ
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by PhiloJ »

Felix:
PhiloJ: I will start with my own definition of free will; free will is not restricted, and formed by any kind of force.
Best to start with a definition that has some remote possibility of existing - I mean try creating a physical reality that would not restrict it's inhabitants wills in any way. Bet you can't do it.
You're right about that, but the point of this definition is that the "free" part of the will, simply can't exist with this definition.
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PhiloJ
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by PhiloJ »

Togo1 wrote:
PhiloJ wrote: When discussing about concepts like free will, I find that people have different definitions of free will, so I want to see how many different definitions of free will there are.

I will start with my own definition of free will; free will is not restricted, and formed by any kind of force.

I will now explain why free will cannot exist whit this definition.
If the thing you've defined, can't exist by definition, then how can you claim it's a valid definition?
The way that I have defined free will, is meant to make free will impossible to exist.
The reason I defined free will in this way, is that I find that being free, is an impossibility.

Togo1 wrote:
PhiloJ wrote: In a world where everything is predetermined, your will would have been chosen by fate, so free will cannot exist here.

In a world where everything is random, your will would be chosen randomly, so free will cannot exist here.

In a world where everything is chosen by chance, your will will depend on chance, so free will cannot exist here.
What about a world that is neither predetermined, not random?
I simply can't find a world that is not predetermined, random, or controlled by chance.
(Chance has a bit of randomness in it too)
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Creative »

Free as in unconstrained does not exist.

However Constrained Choice is what we each do every moment of every day of our lives. We choose to do this or to do that depending upon our memory and outcome is determined by the confluence of all forces associated with the event including the choices that others are making.

Thus we are all constrained but we are all making choices on what actions to take.
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PhiloJ
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by PhiloJ »

Creative wrote:Free as in unconstrained does not exist.

However Constrained Choice is what we each do every moment of every day of our lives. We choose to do this or to do that depending upon our memory and outcome is determined by the confluence of all forces associated with the event including the choices that others are making.

Thus we are all constrained but we are all making choices on what actions to take.
And then comes, what is the defintion of free, or freedom.
My definition is what you described, that being free, is being unconstrained.

From now on it's gonna get a little more complicated it seems, as we need to define everything. :o
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Creative »

PhiloJ wrote:
Creative wrote:Free as in unconstrained does not exist.

However Constrained Choice is what we each do every moment of every day of our lives. We choose to do this or to do that depending upon our memory and outcome is determined by the confluence of all forces associated with the event including the choices that others are making.

Thus we are all constrained but we are all making choices on what actions to take.
And then comes, what is the defintion of free, or freedom.
My definition is what you described, that being free, is being unconstrained.

From now on it's gonna get a little more complicated it seems, as we need to define everything. :o
Free means without any constraints or quid pro quo, as in a Free Lunch. When it comes to choices that human makes, there is nothing that is free of constraints. We are quite literally memory and memory constrains or choices. All forces that envelop each individual constrains choices. However if we , out of ignorance, choose to jump off a cliff we can make that choice and learn something from the outcome, which is unpredictable but certain outcomes are more probable than others.
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PhiloJ
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Re: To Creative.

Post by PhiloJ »

I am curious, how do you define such an idea as control, and choice?

I would define control as; having influence over an object, or being.

And I have two definitions on choice, one can exist in our world, the other can't. (Depends on other definition)

The first is as follows; There is an situation where there is 2, or more outcomes.
(This does not work in a predetermined universe)

The second is as follows; There is an situation where there is 2, or more outcomes, where the outcomes are chosen by a "free" being

The last one would work in our universe, if you define "free" an interesting way.
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Creative »

Influence would be a reasonable enough concept.

Choice is most precisely the directional via the use of will. Up, down, left, right, towards, away, etc. Via direction we attempt to influence. Influence by "talking" would be accomplished via directional movement of our mouths, e.g. we attempt to influence by nothing words or v wrong words, all made by choices.

-- Updated June 18th, 2016, 10:28 pm to add the following --

Sorry, no editor on this board and my spelling checker mangled my paragraph, but hopefully you get the gist of its. Willful direction is the result of choices we c make for ourselves but everything is constrained.
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Belinda »

I strongly agree with Creative. If there were no constraints we would have Free Will, but in the presence of constraints our will cannot be free of constraints.

Freedom is relative to constraints : so-called Free Will is not relatively but absolutely free. Freedom depends upon the presence of constraints.


The hip joint is a ball and socket joint. The hip socket constrains what would otherwise be a universal joint. A universal joint at the hip would make walking impossible.
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Togo1 »

Well, the usual definition of free will that I use is the ability to consciously select from between realisable alternatives.
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PhiloJ
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by PhiloJ »

Belinda wrote:I strongly agree with Creative. If there were no constraints we would have Free Will, but in the presence of constraints our will cannot be free of constraints.

Freedom is relative to constraints : so-called Free Will is not relatively but absolutely free. Freedom depends upon the presence of constraints.


The hip joint is a ball and socket joint. The hip socket constrains what would otherwise be a universal joint. A universal joint at the hip would make walking impossible.
So freedom can be restricted, and still be free?
And how much can freedom be restricted before not being freedom?
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