What’s your definition of free will?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Felix
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Felix »

Platos stepchild: Even if I grant you that free will is immaterial, and therefore "outside the domain... of... science", it's effects aren't. Besides, by definition, free will alters the physical states of reality without antecedent causality.


The will, being immaterial, may or may not be empirically evident. If by "antecedent causality," you mean acting in accordance with known empirical laws, then yes, the will may not do so. It would be considered causally indeterminate.

Furthermore, you can not use the findings of science to defend your position that we have no free will because if it is true, than our science is not a product of reason but only of reactive sensuous thought. Without a free intellect and concomitant free will, reason and creative/original thinking are impossible and science and in fact this debate are irrelevant.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Platos stepchild
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Platos stepchild »

Felix wrote:
Plato's stepchild: Even if I grant you that free will is immaterial, and therefore "outside the domain... of... science", it's effects aren't. Besides, by definition, free will alters the physical states of reality without antecedent causality.


The will, being immaterial, may or may not be empirically evident. If by "antecedent causality," you mean acting in accordance with known empirical laws, then yes, the will may not do so. It would be considered causally indeterminate.

Furthermore, you can not use the findings of science to defend your position that we have no free will because if it is true, than our science is not a product of reason but only of reactive sensuous thought. Without a free intellect and concomitant free will, reason and creative/original thinking are impossible and science and in fact this debate are irrelevant.
You say that without freedom, "science, and ...[even] this debate are irrelevant". This is how I see it: a ball flying through the air follows a predetermined path. Once thrown, there's nothing in it's motion resembling freedom. And yet, I wouldn't call the ball's trajectory "irrelevant".

The behavior of social insects, such as ants is predetermined, with no evidence of free will. But, I wouldn't say that such societies are therefore irrelevant. I agree that the belief in free will is essential. But, "belief" needn't imply "truth". Free will is a useful fiction, nothing more.
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Felix
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Felix »

My question was: Could a "science" practiced by beings incapable of free rational thought, whom are merely a product of their conditioning, be considered "relevant" when it comes to the search for truth? Would such conditioned minds be capable of recognizing what is true or only of recognizing what is inconsistent with their preconceptions?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Darshan
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Darshan »

Earthellism returns to discuss the definition of free will. In the past including the last century, free will was the best explanation for the problem of evil. During WWII, every one waited for free will to take its course and end the war. As the genocide continued, it was clear that free will could not explain the suffering and failed to solve the problem of evil. In this century especially after the Sandy Hooks shooting of 20 children where a dad used the free will of Adam Lanza to explain the death of 20 children including his daughter, it was clear free will had failed again to explain evil.
Earthellism solves the problem of evil for the first time in 18 centuries and explains that free will is not the solution to the problem of evil. It was thought we were all born with free will but it appears some have more free will than others and can force their free will over others free will. Therefore the definition of free will is that it is the failed solution to the problem of evil and provides false hope in solving the problem of evil. The only true free will now is that only human beings have the ability to commit active suicide (some animals can commit passive suicide). Robin Williams proved that our only free will is our gift to be able to commit active suicide and choose when we leave earthell. This free will to be able to end our life if we want to is an extraordinary gift from God to compensate us for the pain and suffering here on earthell that God cannot prevent.

Finally, the proof free will does not explain evil is that Hitler's free will killed 6 million people who also would have the same free will and therefore there is no way to equate one person's free will to the total free will of 6 million people.

After watching the Movie-Where Dreams May Come- where Robin Williams travels to Hell to save his wife, Williams suicide clearly shows he felt he already was in Hell with his brain disease and chose to use his free will to end his suffering here on earthell.
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James195101
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by James195101 »

Free will is the ability to move your left arm or your right arm, etc, etc. As such it exists. You are right that it is not truly free in that the 'conscious' neurones are themselves driven by particle physics etc etc. The conscious brain does at times feel the force of worrying things beyond its control, normally inserted by the sub-conscious brain such as emotions and feelings. This vague feeling of lack of control can at times be constructively managed by god concepts.
Platos stepchild
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Platos stepchild »

James195101 wrote:Free will is the ability to move your left arm or your right arm, etc, etc. As such it exists. You are right that it is not truly free in that the 'conscious' neurons are themselves driven by particle physics etc etc. The conscious brain does at times feel the force of worrying things beyond its control, normally inserted by the sub-conscious brain such as emotions and feelings. This vague feeling of lack of control can at times be constructively managed by god concepts.
You say that freewill is the ability to move [either] your left,...or your right arm But, how can you be so sure of the arrow-of-causality? Maybe moving your limbs and turning you head is what causes, or validates freewill, rather than freewill existing before it supposedly causes bodily movement.
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James195101
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by James195101 »

Freewill exists only as a concept in human minds. It is a mental construct found useful in differentiating between body movements consciously initiated from body 'experiences' otherwise caused. A caterpillar choosing a tasty leaf over a less tasty leaf is displaying freewill, although of course not conscious of it.
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Present awareness
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Present awareness »

One may define "will power" as the ability to refrain from smoking a cigarette, when one has an overwhelming desire to smoke one. The brain, or rather, one's thoughts, seem to be actively overriding the body's desire for nicotine. A person trying to lose weight, has a similar problem when faced with desirable foods which must be avoided.
One may define freedom, as unrestrained action. Freedom to move or think in any direction.
You may agree or disagree with these definitions, but of course, it doesn't matter either way, because you are free to do so.
Since "freedom" and "will" are only concepts in a human mind, it is pointless to argue about them.
Those whom believe in free will and those whom don't, are no different then those whom believe in God and those who don't, since there is no proof either way, so it just comes down to ones own personal faith.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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James195101
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by James195101 »

We use concepts to better live our lives, so arguing about them may be a way of identifying improvements to the concepts. God is a concept which has gained much traction as a improver of human lives.
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Present awareness
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Present awareness »

I agree James. Concepts are great, as a guide through life, and different points of view often help people to adjust their course with new insights. However, to argue ones point of view is usually a fruitless endeavour.
The God concept has helped countless people and has been developed by many different cultures, with many of them claiming that theirs is the one true God.
The free will concept seems to be between those whom might say "The devil made me do it" as if they had no choice and those whom believe a criminal chooses to commit a crime.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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James195101
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by James195101 »

I still struggle to see falseness of the freedom of will built in my conscious brain, although I am sure it is false. The devil is another recognition (in addition to god) of the power of the sub-conscious over the conscious. The conscious does have power over the sub-conscious so it is not valid to say the devil made me do it. However the sub-conscious can make you miserable and even depressed if you ignore it too much. When the sub-conscious leads us to socially acceptable behaviour, we say it is god talking to us; but if it is socially unacceptable, then it is the devil.
Fcacciola
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Fcacciola »

I find it impossible to fruitfully give any consideration to free-will, whatever that might be, without first and foremost considering who's (free) will are we to consider.

Suppose we implicitly refer to human free-will, and so, we explore human actions in the attempt to see if these actions can be thought of being the effect of free-will. Likely, the simplest example would be the motion of our hands. Does my hand raise because I choose to do it? If so, does that mean that "I", whatever that is, have free-will?
If we say yes, we stumble upon the problem of explaining how does that happen given the laws of physics. Does my heart beat also, each and every time, because I choose so, as in my hand raising? In responding to these we can take either the Incompatibilist stance and see this as and indication that we cannot have free-will, or the Compatibilist stance and pose that the universe follows laws but allows external agents (say, me) to interfere every now and then.
However, whether the raising of my hand might or might not be originated in an unimpeded choice, there is still the much more fundamental question of who's choice would that be?

Is easy to see that, if I get into a car and drive, then *the car" would turn either left or right causally affected by my choice (if I have a choice), and there is no real difference between my hand and my car.

Consequently, I found the question

(a) "Who and what would be the free-will agent, if one exists, that seems to be "within" a human being?"

much more interesting than the question

(b) does a human being (which clearly is underspecified entity) posses free-will?

Interestingly, once we search for a free-will agent within a human being, as opposed to free-will of a human being (as whole), then many of the counter-facts and contradictions that leads to the conclusion that a human being do not have free-will are solved instantly and naturally. Effectively, a human being is clearly not a single unit agent, and is only natural that trying to attribute free-will to "ONE" human being is as difficult as trying to attribute it to any other complex system.

Imagine this: I am with other 9 people on a boat. I tell the other 9 to move at once to the left, then the boat flips. Does the "boat+10-people" entity posses free will? Certainly not (at least not any form of interesting free-will). However, if we were to posit that the 10 people do have it, or perhaps, only 1 do (me), then the flipping did in fact originate in a free will agent. But, the entity does not itself has any free-will, so any attempt to find free-will on it would fail.

So, I found it necessary to consider the problem without getting trap by the apparent unity of a human being.
My car, my children, my hands, my *brain*, etc..., is certainly not me (whatever that is, or isn't), so if free-will does exists somehow and as a property of some "who", then I won't find it in the actions of my car, my children, my hands or my brain.

*Agency* is the most significant trait of free-will, in any of the possible definitions, and in my opinion, we can only succeed in finding it (or not) if we first determine what the agents would be.

In that line of thought, I find that a good, perhaps, only feasible starting point is to consider that maybe ALL of reality is effectively made of free-will agents. So, if free-will exists (even if not *human* free-will), then it does everywhere and on anything.

There are some formal works on this line of thought. Some of them are (I cannot post links so just goggle them)

(a) "The free will theorem" by Conway and Koschen.

(b) "Triadic Dimensional-Distinction Vortical Paradigm" by Neppe and Close.

(c) "Posibilist Transactional Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics " by Ruth Kastner.

These all have in common the idea that free-will is a fundamental trait of the very fabric of reality.
Syamsu
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Syamsu »

You should start with trying to accurately reflect the logic as used in common discourse in regards to people choosing things. Because without doing that, you really are just making it up what free will is.

So your question about agency becomes, what logic do people use in common discourse in regards to identifying the agency of a decision?

And if you so enquire, without making stuff up yourself, but only trying to accurately reflect 1 to 1 the logic that is already present in common discourse, then you will certainly find something practically useful, as common discourse is very practically useful. People use the word choosing lots and lots in a very practical way.
Fcacciola
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Fcacciola »

Syamsu wrote:You should start with trying to accurately reflect the logic as used in common discourse in regards to people choosing things. Because without doing that, you really are just making it up what free will is.

So your question about agency becomes, what logic do people use in common discourse in regards to identifying the agency of a decision?

And if you so enquire, without making stuff up yourself, but only trying to accurately reflect 1 to 1 the logic that is already present in common discourse, then you will certainly find something practically useful, as common discourse is very practically useful. People use the word choosing lots and lots in a very practical way.
I've been trying to understand what are you saying, but still can't.... can you elaborate?
Syamsu
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Re: What’s your definition of free will?

Post by Syamsu »

For example in common discourse people talk in terms of choosing in relation to having alternative futures available, one of which is made the present. Like the election between Clinton and Trump, and Trump was chosen.

So not make up **** yourself, but accurate reflect the logic in common discourse.
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