The five levels of consciousness

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

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Felix wrote:Greta, in this and other threads, you have associated technical progress with evolutionary advancement. The fact is, they can be antithetical. Man's reliance on technical tools can cause him to rely less on his natural abilities, such as reason, memory, and empathy, which may then atrophy through disuse.

For example, before the advent of printing and the widespread dissemination of books, humankind mostly passed on their knowledge orally, which developed the powers of imagination and memory. The book and later the digital hard-drive came to replace the brain as the main repository of information, information began to be mistaken for knowledge and eloquence faded.

A more current example: children growing up communicating primarily with others via electronic devices such as smart phones. As a consequence they may fail to develop primary interpersonal and critical thinking skills. Image is mistaken for substance: that guy your teenage daughter met on Facebook seemed so genial, how was she to know he was a predator?

So I wouldn't expect technology to be mankind's evolutionary savior, it could instead become the instrument of his destruction.
I generally agree with you, Felix. But the main action is in the detail IMO.

We are arguably at a point where we can usefully parse "humans", as in individuals, and "humanity" the collective. As most humans (the italics are critical) become more inflexibly dronelike, as you observed above, the collective of humanity becomes ever more knowing and empowered. Eusocial dynamics in action - most members are limited in potential to create greater potential for both the "royalty" and the collective as a whole.

So, while our "proles" (let's call a spade a spade) become more base, more mired in reality TV, superstitions, conspiracy theories and competing in a rat race they aren't meant to win, the intellectual, physical and moral exemplars of our societies achieve ever greater refinements to the efforts of their predecessors. It's a dual dynamic, one that tends to happen during the early stages of speciation.

So when you speak about "saviour", it's worth asking "saviour to whom"? You're right, technology won't save the common people. They are doomed and always have been because the Earth has limited carrying capacity. However, not all humans are equally exposed to the issues. In the long term I see technology as of more use to the planet than humans, in that human space travel is the best way that the Earth can distribute its "seeds" to other worlds before the Sun's future catastrophic expansion.

Re: technology, at what point should humanity stop or slow down technological progress? More to the point, how is it possible to slow down technological advancement in a competitive world where each nation has a huge stake in being first to achieve various AI, biotechnology, nanotechnology and quantum computing goals, amongst others?
Felix wrote:
Perhaps the moral of the story is that if something seems huge and keeps doing inexplicable and seemingly impossible things, then the chances are it's smarter than you, and probably obtuse as regard the subtleties of your life.
Intelligence is not wisdom, there is nothing more destructive than ingenuity without sensitivity.
Sure, intelligence is clearly not the same as wisdom, although it helps. After all, how could an ancient healer "wisely" help a patient who was ill with a bacterial infection if they didn't know about germs? They may have conducted their pointless exorcisms with a wise and moderate approach as judged by the standards of their societies, but it's still obviously foolish behaviour from a modern perspective.

While on the subject, it occurred to me recently that wisdom is about being able to achieve one's ends using the "lightest possible touch". Life inevitably involves destruction. The wise, I expect, would achieve more with less disruption to others than the unwise. Human society obviously has some way to go there.

Re: sensitivity: consider what strange, blundering beasts we humans must seem to ants. Of course we are insensitive to ants (only in the last few years have I made a concerted effort to no step on the ants nesting near my front steps). Consider the subtlety of ant senses and their tiny interactions. Humans are like mobile earthquakes by comparison - big, mindless walking natural disasters. This is, not coincidentally, how we individuals tend to view governments and corporations - giant, mindlessly consuming, insensate beasts when compared with the poignancy of each individual humans' experience. Culturally immature entities that are still in the "mindless consumption stage". As the fruits of mindless consumption become ever more clear, there will come an emerging, if not morality, at least a strategic pragmatism as regards society and environment, which would make a nice start.
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

Post by LuckyR »

Felix wrote:The OP put Homo Sapiens in category #3, "act rationally rather than impulsively and have also developed a more complex way of living such as ourselves." But it is debatable how rational a being is that destroys it's own habitat and decimates it's own species and others. Which implies we haven't attained level 3 yet.

So now we have 6 levels, one more below Level #1 and we'll have the lucky 7 that Dolphin42 suggested. Good idea, we will need luck on our side.
Not really. If humans are level 3, then there is only practical experience with 3 levels. That is a pretty flat hierarchy from viruses to humans (three levels??!!??). Sounds like a better scale is in order...
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

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LuckyR wrote:
Felix wrote:The OP put Homo Sapiens in category #3, "act rationally rather than impulsively and have also developed a more complex way of living such as ourselves." But it is debatable how rational a being is that destroys it's own habitat and decimates it's own species and others. Which implies we haven't attained level 3 yet.

So now we have 6 levels, one more below Level #1 and we'll have the lucky 7 that Dolphin42 suggested. Good idea, we will need luck on our side.
Not really. If humans are level 3, then there is only practical experience with 3 levels. That is a pretty flat hierarchy from viruses to humans (three levels??!!??). Sounds like a better scale is in order...
I'd added a lower level for viruses, prions and stars earlier. I think Finn's level #1 included bacteria and plants, but not viruses.

Level #1 could easily be split too too, because the difference in sophistication between, say, E. coli and a complex, fruiting and flowering tree is profound, even if the difference seems moot from the "lofty" standpoint of human consciousness. Speaking of which, the universe is 13.8 billion years old and we are the peak intelligence for trillions of kms around us. Since the universe could continue creating stars and evolving life for another trillion years, it may turn out that the difference between bacteria and humans is only a few levels after all. Consciousness could perhaps reach "level 200" for all we know. It's quite likely IMO that, even with today's vast knowledge, we remain, like Newton, like children playing on the seashore.
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

Post by LuckyR »

Greta wrote:
LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Not really. If humans are level 3, then there is only practical experience with 3 levels. That is a pretty flat hierarchy from viruses to humans (three levels??!!??). Sounds like a better scale is in order...
I'd added a lower level for viruses, prions and stars earlier. I think Finn's level #1 included bacteria and plants, but not viruses.

Level #1 could easily be split too too, because the difference in sophistication between, say, E. coli and a complex, fruiting and flowering tree is profound, even if the difference seems moot from the "lofty" standpoint of human consciousness. Speaking of which, the universe is 13.8 billion years old and we are the peak intelligence for trillions of kms around us. Since the universe could continue creating stars and evolving life for another trillion years, it may turn out that the difference between bacteria and humans is only a few levels after all. Consciousness could perhaps reach "level 200" for all we know. It's quite likely IMO that, even with today's vast knowledge, we remain, like Newton, like children playing on the seashore.
No doubt that the number of possible, yet unobserved, levels could be quite high. It seems overly clunky to lump bacteria with plants, biologically. We would be sharing our level with disturbingly simple thinkers on that sort of scale. It is doable, of course, but why use such a simplistic scale, when a 3rd grade class could come up with a more useful 7 point scale?
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

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LuckyR wrote:
Greta wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

I'd added a lower level for viruses, prions and stars earlier. I think Finn's level #1 included bacteria and plants, but not viruses.

Level #1 could easily be split too too, because the difference in sophistication between, say, E. coli and a complex, fruiting and flowering tree is profound, even if the difference seems moot from the "lofty" standpoint of human consciousness. Speaking of which, the universe is 13.8 billion years old and we are the peak intelligence for trillions of kms around us. Since the universe could continue creating stars and evolving life for another trillion years, it may turn out that the difference between bacteria and humans is only a few levels after all. Consciousness could perhaps reach "level 200" for all we know. It's quite likely IMO that, even with today's vast knowledge, we remain, like Newton, like children playing on the seashore.
No doubt that the number of possible, yet unobserved, levels could be quite high. It seems overly clunky to lump bacteria with plants, biologically. We would be sharing our level with disturbingly simple thinkers on that sort of scale. It is doable, of course, but why use such a simplistic scale, when a 3rd grade class could come up with a more useful 7 point scale?
I personally applaud any attempt to determine such a scale. Any model is bound to be flawed, with progress being a matter of being less wrong than before.

A a general principle, I would categorise according to apparent physical emergences, which (in brutal shorthand) would seem something like this:

- unassociated quantum particles
- atoms
- molecules
- lattice and dynamic simple structures (eg. storms)
- proto life - stars, planets, viruses, prions
- living cells (micro organisms)
- multicellular living structures (from amoebas to trees and fungi)
- chordates (ie. one part of an organism is directly connected to other parts)
- brained chordates
- social brained chordates
- abstract thinking brained chordates (human)
- [speculative] superintelligence - could be thought of as "multicellular abstract thinking chordates", being an integrated combined perspective of multiple humans and AI, which may occur in the future.
- [speculative] "multicellular superintelligence" - an integrated aggregation of the above entities.
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

Post by LuckyR »

Greta wrote:
LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


No doubt that the number of possible, yet unobserved, levels could be quite high. It seems overly clunky to lump bacteria with plants, biologically. We would be sharing our level with disturbingly simple thinkers on that sort of scale. It is doable, of course, but why use such a simplistic scale, when a 3rd grade class could come up with a more useful 7 point scale?
I personally applaud any attempt to determine such a scale. Any model is bound to be flawed, with progress being a matter of being less wrong than before.

A a general principle, I would categorise according to apparent physical emergences, which (in brutal shorthand) would seem something like this:

- unassociated quantum particles
- atoms
- molecules
- lattice and dynamic simple structures (eg. storms)
- proto life - stars, planets, viruses, prions
- living cells (micro organisms)
- multicellular living structures (from amoebas to trees and fungi)
- chordates (ie. one part of an organism is directly connected to other parts)
- brained chordates
- social brained chordates
- abstract thinking brained chordates (human)
- [speculative] superintelligence - could be thought of as "multicellular abstract thinking chordates", being an integrated combined perspective of multiple humans and AI, which may occur in the future.
- [speculative] "multicellular superintelligence" - an integrated aggregation of the above entities.
The last two seem like individual Borg and the Borg collective. Unfortunately for the levels, they were destroyed by mere humans using neurolytic pathogens and transphasic torpedos.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

Post by Nick_A »

I'll stick with the ancient concept of the Great Chain of Being containing relative consciousness. It makes far more sense to me. My guess is that it isn't common knowledge in a secular dominant culture because at the top of the Hierarchy of being is the dreaded G word which must be avoided at all cost.

http://faculty.up.edu/asarnow/greatchainofbeing.htm
Among the most important of the continuities with the Classical period was the concept of the Great Chain of Being. Its major premise was that every existing thing in the universe had its "place" in a divinely planned hierarchical order, which was pictured as a chain vertically extended. ("Hierarchical" refers to an order based on a series of higher and lower, strictly ranked gradations.) An object's "place" depended on the relative proportion of "spirit" and "matter" it contained--the less "spirit" and the more "matter," the lower down it stood. At the bottom, for example, stood various types of inanimate objects, such as metals, stones, and the four elements (earth, water, air, fire). Higher up were various members of the vegetative class, like trees and flowers. Then came animals; then humans; and then angels. At the very top was God. Then within each of these large groups, there were other hierarchies. For example, among metals, gold was the noblest and stood highest; lead had less "spirit" and more matter and so stood lower. (Alchemy was based on the belief that lead could be changed to gold through an infusion of "spirit.") The various species of plants, animals, humans, and angels were similarly ranked from low to high within their respective segments. Finally, it was believed that between the segments themselves, there was continuity (shellfish were lowest among animals and shaded into the vegetative class, for example, because without locomotion, they most resembled plants)........................................
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

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LuckyR wrote:The last two seem like individual Borg and the Borg collective. Unfortunately for the levels, they were destroyed by mere humans using neurolytic pathogens and transphasic torpedos.
Level four would be extremely smart - the brains of many perspectives collected into a meta-perspective as opposed to the Borg, which was more a singular (not terribly bright) perspective pushed through dumb terminals.
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

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Greta: So when you speak about "saviour", it's worth asking "saviour to whom"?
I meant the human species.
Greta: Re: technology, at what point should humanity stop or slow down technological progress?
True, it's probably a juggernaut that will not be stopped, but my point was that if human nature does not change, if our capacity for empathy and understanding does not also evolve, our technological ingenuity is likely to be the means to our destruction, whether by an environmental catastrophe, nuclear holocaust, or whatever.

You spoke of emigration to other planets. Why, because we've turned this planet into an unlivable wasteland and so must find another world to support us?
Greta: Sure, intelligence is clearly not the same as wisdom, although it helps. After all, how could an ancient healer "wisely" help a patient who was ill with a bacterial infection if they didn't know about germs? They may have conducted their pointless exorcisms with a wise and moderate approach as judged by the standards of their societies, but it's still obviously foolish behaviour from a modern perspective.
This is the sort of condescending modernist bias to which I was referring: as if prior to the scientific revolution, humankind were bewildered superstitious savages. Treatments for bacterial infection have been known about for thousand of years, long before Pasteur was born, e.g., antibiotic herbs and poultices. One can solve a problem without knowing it's exact physical cause, in fact sometimes do a better job of it because a more holistic approach is taken. If a plant "talks to" a shaman and reveals to him it's healing properties, is this knowledge inferior to the botanists method of collecting and lab testing thousands of plant specimens to determine their active healing principles? Most of our modern drugs were originally derived from herbal remedies.
Human society obviously has some way to go there.
Agreed, the big question is if we will make it or destroy ourselves first due to our blind worship of technological progress.
Greta: Level four would be extremely smart - the brains of many perspectives collected into a meta-perspective as opposed to the Borg, which was more a singular (not terribly bright) perspective pushed through dumb terminals.
But you spoke of AI technology augmenting and perhaps eventually replacing brains, which is exactly where the Borg began, meta-perspective regressed to mono-perspective.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

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Felix wrote:You spoke of emigration to other planets. Why, because we've turned this planet into an unlivable wasteland and so must find another world to support us?
No, because the Sun is heating and expanding. In a billion years the oceans will be boiled away. In about five billion, the Sun will expand to a point where it will surely disintegrate the Earth, even if it doesn't entirely envelop it.

The Earth is going to die and human modernisation provides the only means that any aspect of life on Earth can be preserved (barring fluky asteroid strikes sending ice-preserved bacteria into space to miraculously land on a survivable world).
Felix wrote:
... how could an ancient healer "wisely" help a patient who was ill with a bacterial infection if they didn't know about germs? They may have conducted their pointless exorcisms with a wise and moderate approach as judged by the standards of their societies, but it's still obviously foolish behaviour from a modern perspective.
This is the sort of condescending modernist bias to which I was referring: as if prior to the scientific revolution, humankind were bewildered superstitious savages. Treatments for bacterial infection have been known about for thousand of years, long before Pasteur was born, e.g., antibiotic herbs and poultices.
That's too postmodern a view IMO. Even putting aside hygiene and violence issues, modern medicine has hugely extended people's life spans. Also note that many cultures have tried to sure the sick by exorcising evil spirits. It wasn't all about herbal poultices.

While one can be both wise and ignorant (eg. loving and calm), without knowledge there is a greater chance of clumsy errors, such as trying to treat sick people with superstitious non-cures or trying to "snap" another out of their depression.
Felix wrote:
Human society obviously has some way to go there.
Agreed, the big question is if we will make it or destroy ourselves first due to our blind worship of technological progress.
Again, it depends on what you mean by "ourselves". If you mean poor, undeveloped and overpopulated countries around the equator and the Pacific Island, then yes, they will certainly struggle terribly this century.

If anyone is going to come through the coming environmental pressures relatively unscathed, it will be the eighty billionaires whose wealth is equal to that of the poorest 3.5 billion people, along with associates and useful others under their protective umbrella. In fact, I can imagine that, while entire nations are decimated, some portions of societies will be fully insulated and continue to progress at the rate of Moore's Law. To the best of my knowledge, there are no credible projections at the moment that humanity as a whole will be rendered extinct during this current extinction event, although "little people" like you and I may be.
Felix wrote:
Greta: Level four would be extremely smart - the brains of many perspectives collected into a meta-perspective as opposed to the Borg, which was more a singular (not terribly bright) perspective pushed through dumb terminals.
But you spoke of AI technology augmenting and perhaps eventually replacing brains, which is exactly where the Borg began, meta-perspective regressed to mono-perspective.
Albeit a savage a brainless one, demonstrating all the sophistication of an empowered amoeba. As with many Dr Who scenarios, it's not realistic. IMO super advanced entities necessarily will be masterful cooperators, more aware of "the games people play", and more adept at avoiding them in favour of sincere engagement. Further, dumb terminals are far less empowered than agents with some measure of freedom.

Even we humans aren't always so wicked. Consider how NASA behaved around the area of salty surface water on Mars. Despite a human desperation to find life on other worlds, they have avoided sending the rover near the site for fear of contamination. This kind of curious science-based approach would seem more likely in a superintelligence than the space invaders depicted in fiction.
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

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Finn_Mac wrote:I have been thinking about the hierarchy of the natural universe and have come up with a few basic points. I would appreciate some feedback though I apologise for some of the grammar:

Level 1: Beings that act instinctively: This category could include any type of living thing that doesn't possess consciousness but still lives and reproduces ranging from plant matter such as flowers and trees which have a life cycle but do not possess a consciousness and act out their life cycle, to animals such as bacteria and insects who act purely on instinct.

Level 2: Beings with a basic level of intellect: This category covers animals which possess the ability to communicate, embrace basic feelings and rationalise to a certain extent. This category extends from animals such as fish to more complicated beings such as monkeys, Dolphins and forms of humanoid such as Neanderthals.

Level 3: Beings that have developed intellect beyond the point of other animals: This category represents beings that can think independently and more broadly and act rationally rather than impulsively and have also developed a more complex way of living such as ourselves.

Level 4: Advanced beings: Beings that have not been identified but have a strong possibility of existing with superhuman capabilities and advancements.

Level 5: Godlike being(s): the highest form of being capable of existing. This being is so much more refined and intelligent it could have the capability of creating life on immeasurable scales such as the known universes. This type of being is relatively incomprehensible to the human imagination and has been interpreted by humans for centuries.

Finn: Try as I might, I just can't recognize your four levels of consciousness. I do however conceive of a profound gap between living and non-living entities, and again between living things and non-material spirit beings. These three categories are so different they cannot all be analyzed with the same form of logic, e.g., physics vs psychology.

Among living things, a few are higher-order animals, i.e., they make thoughtful decisions, e.g,, dogs, cats, pigs, humans, marine mammals, etc. There doesn't seem to be any bright lines between these examples, except one of degree. Humans and perhaps some cetaceans have evolved brains which communicate via predicate sentences rather than simple grunts and growls with a single intension. Sprit beings are so far beyond our ken we can only surmise their nature and analyze them from a religious POV. - CW
The central question of human existence is not why we are here, but rather why we behave the way we do - http://onhumanaffairs.blogspot.com/
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

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We (human) are born with a neuronal density. It is the white matter the responsible agent for the interconnectivity which is undifferentiated at birth. However, (IMO) evolutive capacities are present and inherited to account for the differences that globalization accentuates. Are we really that much different than diverse? The electrical psychic energy has an emotional component interconnecting with the centres of knowledge and speech at the grey matter. (IMO) the densities present in early development account for the more emotional than cerebral capabilities. It is the conditioning of the brain plasticity the responsible agent for the preferential behaviours that aging and atrophy will solidify in the views of reality. A more dense brain has a (theoretically) bigger capacity for change as the brain tries to create new pathways to areas responding to psychic energies. What is right and what is wrong shapes our DNA to new forms. What is beautiful changes as well. Our record is not very long to establish such premise. Yet, it is my affirmation. Consciousness is among other things the psychic energy travelling the conditioned pathways in a bidirectional white matter connectivity influenced by the numerous variables of living. It is obvious that Faith is a capacity to a bigger psychic energy generator with a bidirectional highway to Heaven.
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

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Greta wrote: A a general principle, I would categorise according to apparent physical emergences, which (in brutal shorthand) would seem something like this:
- unassociated quantum particles
There exist no "unassociated quantum particles". Not sure where this kind of ides stems from.

Here is a more proper generalized cosmic heirarch that none have ever offered any rational, logical common sense to invalidate or add too;

1} "U"niverse

....1a} metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts ex concepts of Space, God, Universe, "U"niverse, Dogs Cats etc....

----line-of-demarcation-------------------------------------------------

....1b} metaphysical-2, macro-infinite non-occupied space, that, embraces the following,

....1c} finite, occupied space Universe aka Uni-V-erse

.....1c2 } fermions, bosons and any aggregate collection thereof--- ex biological's ---as observed and associated with sine-wave topology's ergo time/energy/physical/reality,

......1c3} gravity ( )---positive shaped space,

.......1c4} dark energy )(---negative shaped space

Again, this is just the primary set and not list of all that comes from any aggregate collection of fermions, bosons, gravity and dark energy ex our finite, occupied space Universe, that is listed.

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

Post by Sy Borg »

Rr6 wrote:
Greta wrote: A a general principle, I would categorise according to apparent physical emergences, which (in brutal shorthand) would seem something like this:
- unassociated quantum particles
There exist no "unassociated quantum particles". Not sure where this kind of ides stems from.
Yes, everything is associated with something. "Free quantum particles" is the correct term.
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Re: The five levels of consciousness

Post by Rr6 »

Greta wrote:
Rr6 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


There exist no "unassociated quantum particles". Not sure where this kind of ides stems from.
Yes, everything is associated with something. "Free quantum particles" is the correct term.
If all particles have some association with at minimum some other particle then the terms "free particle" are misleading, or a misomer. imho

Here is a more proper generalized cosmic heirarchy, that, none have ever offered any rational, logical common sense to invalidate, or add too;

1} "U"niverse

....1a} metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts ex concepts of Space, God, Universe, "U"niverse, Dogs Cats etc...[

----line-of-demarcation-------------------------------------------------

....1b} metaphysical-2, macro-infinite non-occupied space, that, embraces the following,

....1c} finite, occupied space Universe aka Uni-V-erse

.....1c2 } fermions, bosons and any aggregate collection thereof--- ex biological's ---as observed and associated with sine-wave topology's ergo time/energy/physical/reality,

......1c3} gravity ( )---positive shaped space,

.......1c4} dark energy )(---negative shaped space

Again, this is just the primary set and not list of all that comes from any aggregate collection of fermions, bosons, gravity and dark energy ex our finite, occupied space Universe, that is listed.
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021