Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Edgar L Owen
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Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Edgar L Owen »

All,

A computational universe must be logically consistent and logically complete. If it weren't it would tear itself apart at the inconsistencies and pause at the incompletenesses and could not exist. There is plenty of evidence the universe must be computational and this must be a basic tenant of a computational theory of reality.

Applying Godel's incompleteness theorem to the universe is incorrect. Godel's theorem applies to systems in which someone can arbitrarily state a wff (well formed formula) in the system and then it may be impossible to determine whether or not it can ever be reached (proven) from the axioms.

But computational reality (universe) doesn't work like that. The universe just always directly computes its next data state from the current data state and that can always be done and Godel doesn't apply. The universe doesn't make up states and then try to figure out ways to reach them. It's not teleological, it just computes one state from the previous.

Edgar L. Owen
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Spiral Out
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Spiral Out »

I don't think anything is "computed" or "calculated" in the universe. I think **** just happens. I don't see how the Universe is in any way "computational". That's just a construct we assign to it because thats all we can understand at this point in our development.
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ChanceIsChange
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by ChanceIsChange »

Edgar L Owen wrote:There is plenty of evidence the universe must be computational
For example?
Camalot15
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Camalot15 »

Yes a logical complete universe spells a innate logic in all action and that would include consciousness as part of that completeness. This leads to Consciosness as logic collapsing the wave function in qm.
Gertie
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Gertie »

Isn't 'computational' a way of describing what we observe - stuff doing what it does in particular ways, apparently following particular rules, which we then describe as 'logic' and 'maths'?

How about the stuff we can't observe like dark matter, or stuff and rules/non-rules which we might be there which we don't even know we can't observe?

I think we have to make a more tentative claim, that we have good working models for describing and predicting at the levels of resolution which we can directly or indirectly observe.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Sy Borg »

Mathematics is a language so, if it's equally valid to declare reality a series of stories as it is to declare it a series of calculations. As far as we humans know - from our necessarily limited vantage point from within the system - the only parts of the universe that do any calculating are intelligent life forms and their technology. The rest of reality just does stuff, which can be either calculated or explained post hoc using either the language of mathematics or our usual languages.

I agree that the universe must be logically consistent within itself (which is not necessarily logically consistent to our perception). The way I see it, whatever phenomena can persist over time, does so and then can be said to exist.
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Camalot15 »

Yes logic exists inside the action of changing moving things but in my opinion it logic that is exists as consciousness outside and inside the action of changing moving things. Consciousness is a form of exposed static logic.
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Camalot15 »

Could it be that logic as certainty is the hold all dimension that hosts all else woven into it to give time space gravity and matter the order of a logical but uncertain universe.
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Eluhorem
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Eluhorem »

Camalot15 wrote:Could it be that logic as certainty is the hold all dimension that hosts all else woven into it to give time space gravity and matter the order of a logical but uncertain universe.
I think yes, this could be the case. Spinoza, Wittgenstein, Carnot, and Chalmers would likely agree with forms of this. It's something of an idealist perspective, to me, because if logic is the root of existence, it would seem some fundamental awareness would serve as the basis for that logic- the logic would not be instantiated if there weren't an awareness to know the state and facticity of that logic.
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Camalot15 »

In that case perhaps at root, consciousness is the unchanging certainty that is the relativity that exists between moving and changing things including reference frames.
Syamsu
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Syamsu »

Edgar L Owen wrote:All,

A computational universe must be logically consistent and logically complete. If it weren't it would tear itself apart at the inconsistencies and pause at the incompletenesses and could not exist. There is plenty of evidence the universe must be computational and this must be a basic tenant of a computational theory of reality.

Applying Godel's incompleteness theorem to the universe is incorrect. Godel's theorem applies to systems in which someone can arbitrarily state a wff (well formed formula) in the system and then it may be impossible to determine whether or not it can ever be reached (proven) from the axioms.

But computational reality (universe) doesn't work like that. The universe just always directly computes its next data state from the current data state and that can always be done and Godel doesn't apply. The universe doesn't make up states and then try to figure out ways to reach them. It's not teleological, it just computes one state from the previous.

Edgar L. Owen
To say the universe is computational means the objects in the universe consist of the laws of nature, and as laws unto themselves the things are free.

The object uses the past, present and future states of the object, to compute the next state of the object.

How Godels incompleteness theorem is avoided is by the rule that the totality of the universe can only be zero. An action has an equal and opposite reaction, signifying a totality of nothing.
Camalot15
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Camalot15 »

Logical completeness of the universe would suggest that it the universe is woven into a hold all dimension of certainty ,certainty being of its self logically complete.This certainty would be the automatic Computational logic in that organises uncertainty into actualized outcomes.
Camalot15
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Camalot15 »

Certainty becomes logic to a physics woven into its self(certainty). So the innate logic that computates physics in its uncertainty would be certainty as logic.
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Rr6
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Rr6 »

Syamsu wrote: How Godels incompleteness theorem is avoided is by the rule that the totality of the universe can only be zero. An action has an equal and opposite reaction, signifying a totality of nothing.
I don't have the exact quote of Fullers, but he states some approximation of the Universe is always off-center--- tainted dis-equilibrium ---by one tetrahedral quanta. All is never in exact state of equilibrium but the integrity of equilibrium is maintained by oscillations between always being off-center by one negative or positive tetrahedral quanta.

I will look for his exact quote. r6

-- Updated February 2nd, 2017, 2:11 pm to add the following --

http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergeti ... p4000.html

.."345.00 All the differences between de-finite conceptual systems and finite, yet nonconceptual total Universe seem to provide a fundamental means of identifying the physical phenomenon entropy. Entropy no longer means inherent -escape of energy from any local system, or decrease of local order, or increase to disorder. Entropy now means the invisible extraction from any local definitive system of the negative conceptual entity; i.e., one negative tetrahedron deposited into Universe. balance of energy conservation, permitting the local extraction of any visible, orderly conceptual system. Entropy is not random: it is always one negative tetrahedron. It can account finitely for any discrete rate of energy loss. (See Secs. 620.12 and 625.03.)"...
Rr6 wrote:
Syamsu wrote: How Godels incompleteness theorem is avoided is by the rule that the totality of the universe can only be zero. An action has an equal and opposite reaction, signifying a totality of nothing.
I don't have the exact quote of Fullers, but he states some approximation of the Universe is always off-center--- tainted dis-equilibrium ---by one tetrahedral quanta. All is never in exact state of equilibrium but the integrity of equilibrium is maintained by oscillations between always being off-center by one negative or positive tetrahedral quanta.

I will look for his exact quote. r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
Camalot15
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Re: Why the universe must be logically consistent & complete

Post by Camalot15 »

Would the inate logic found in a computated universe be an expression of certainty changing an uncertain system?
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