What is Information?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Webplodder
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Webplodder »

JamesOfSeattle wrote:
I'm a little confused as to why some of you feel the need to bend over backwards in order to require an interpreter to define information. I've seen "unexperienced information" and "potential information". It's seems obvious that there is something there that people refer to as information even if there is no interpretation. Otherwise this sentence makes no sense: "I know the information I need is in this book, but I don't understand Russian."

Also, I note that Philo_soph wasn't satisfied saying No audience = no information. It had to be "no information communicated", but then the statement isn't about information. The statement is about communication.

I guess it's fine to require an audience, but then I'm more interested in the proto-information. What is it that makes something proto-information?

The difficulty is that we cannnot know what the proto-information is since that is the one element that cannot tell anything about what the 'experienced' information like. This is the state of information before it has passed through our filters of perception and we seem to be stuck with it.
Tamminen
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Tamminen »

JamesOfSeattle wrote:Tamminen, while I would say it is correct that the first electron has information, it is not correct to say that the second electron is interpreting that information, unless you can explain how somthing gains value from the exchange.
'Interpretation' and 'value' usually refer to consciousness or subjectivity in general. When you use them in the case of a bacterium etc., do you mean that these are some kind of "preconscious" or "presubjective" phenomena, which then in the course of evolution reach the level on which we interpret phenomena of nature? If so, what kind of physical or biological entities can interpret information and what kind of entities cannot? Or have I misunderstood the whole idea?
Eaglerising
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Eaglerising »

Webplodder –
Yeah, but you're back to the problem of there existing some kind of agency that is in a position to interpret past, present, and future, even if they do co-exist.
I am currently working on a paper showing how science (objectivity)can validate philosophy (subjectivity) and vice versa, Needless to say it will be very controversial. On the other hand, others will be able to duplicate it and thereby verify the validity of it. A while back I developed a type of philosophy I called forensic philosophy for lack of words. I figured most people comprehended the principle and validity of forensics. At the time I didn't realize the significance of what I discovered until lately. I will be introducing it here within a few months.
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JamesOfSeattle
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Re: What is Information?

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

Tamminen wrote:[W]hat kind of physical or biological entities can interpret information and what kind of entities cannot? Or have I misunderstood the whole idea?
Very good question. The simple answer is that an entity can interpret information if it contains and uses separate information organized for a purpose. Obviously I am using very broad concepts of interpretation and purpose. For example, in the case of a bacterium, the "purpose" is determined by natural selection, and the "information organized for a purpose" is the genetic information which is used to create cell-surface receptors which generate the correct response to the information of a particular chemical in the environment. Another word for "information organized for a purpose" is knowledge.

Now the same definition applies to human beings, but the explanation of purpose can get complicated. My inclination is to refer to purposes that result from intentionality (reasoning) as meta-purposes.

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Webplodder
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Webplodder »

Eaglerising wrote:Webplodder –
Yeah, but you're back to the problem of there existing some kind of agency that is in a position to interpret past, present, and future, even if they do co-exist.
I am currently working on a paper showing how science (objectivity)can validate philosophy (subjectivity) and vice versa, Needless to say it will be very controversial. On the other hand, others will be able to duplicate it and thereby verify the validity of it. A while back I developed a type of philosophy I called forensic philosophy for lack of words. I figured most people comprehended the principle and validity of forensics. At the time I didn't realize the significance of what I discovered until lately. I will be introducing it here within a few months.
I await with bated breath! :D
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Webplodder
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Webplodder »

JamesOfSeattle wrote:
Tamminen wrote:[W]hat kind of physical or biological entities can interpret information and what kind of entities cannot? Or have I misunderstood the whole idea?
Very good question. The simple answer is that an entity can interpret information if it contains and uses separate information organized for a purpose. Obviously I am using very broad concepts of interpretation and purpose. For example, in the case of a bacterium, the "purpose" is determined by natural selection, and the "information organized for a purpose" is the genetic information which is used to create cell-surface receptors which generate the correct response to the information of a particular chemical in the environment. Another word for "information organized for a purpose" is knowledge.

Now the same definition applies to human beings, but the explanation of purpose can get complicated. My inclination is to refer to purposes that result from intentionality (reasoning) as meta-purposes.

*
Yet we know information exists at the most fundamental levels of reality. Atoms and molecules react to energy in an organized way and we know this because we can express it mathematically, so where does the boundary between information and non-information exist?
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JamesOfSeattle
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Re: What is Information?

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

Webplodder, I agree that a hydrogen atom contains information. What I don't see is how it can be said that a hydrogen atom can interpret information from another system. By my simplified definition, interpretation requires separate information organized for the purpose of such interpretation. This assumes that the entity could have lacked such information and been unable to do the interpretation. I challenge you to explain how a hydrogen atom can perform such an interpretation. [I could do it, but not without invoking an intelligent designer]

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Webplodder
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Webplodder »

JamesOfSeattle wrote:Webplodder, I agree that a hydrogen atom contains information. What I don't see is how it can be said that a hydrogen atom can interpret information from another system. By my simplified definition, interpretation requires separate information organized for the purpose of such interpretation. This assumes that the entity could have lacked such information and been unable to do the interpretation. I challenge you to explain how a hydrogen atom can perform such an interpretation. [I could do it, but not without invoking an intelligent designer]

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Looking at the early universe there were many processes which could be said to have been organized in the absence of any 'consciousness', so things like the hydrogen atom have been 'doing their thing' long before any lifeform capable of asking questions about it evolved. In other words, information has been an ancient and persistent part of our universe, in fact, we are just one example of information focusing on itself.
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Eaglerising »

Please excuse my mistake I made about information and knowledge. Unfortunately, I cannot remember where or how often I make it.
Anyway, I should have said knowledge is the practical or useful use of information.
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Webplodder
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Webplodder »

Eaglerising wrote:Please excuse my mistake I made about information and knowledge. Unfortunately, I cannot remember where or how often I make it.
Anyway, I should have said knowledge is the practical or useful use of information.
No problem Eaglerising, at least you have the integrity to be open about it. :D

And, yes, I agree that knowledge is the practical use of information but I think in practically applying it we simply don't bother (or indeed need to) ask deep questions about what information actually is.

I suppose we could accept it is something we use in a helpful way and leave that as the definition, but human beings have a tendency to question everything, even if there is no obvious advantage in doing so. The Greeks (and others) thought about stuff that today we benefit from due to philosophical and scientific inquiry, so philosophy certainly has a valuable role in the advancement of knowledge.
Chriswl
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Chriswl »

Webplodder wrote:
JamesOfSeattle wrote:Webplodder, I agree that a hydrogen atom contains information. What I don't see is how it can be said that a hydrogen atom can interpret information from another system. By my simplified definition, interpretation requires separate information organized for the purpose of such interpretation. This assumes that the entity could have lacked such information and been unable to do the interpretation. I challenge you to explain how a hydrogen atom can perform such an interpretation. [I could do it, but not without invoking an intelligent designer]

*
Looking at the early universe there were many processes which could be said to have been organized in the absence of any 'consciousness', so things like the hydrogen atom have been 'doing their thing' long before any lifeform capable of asking questions about it evolved. In other words, information has been an ancient and persistent part of our universe, in fact, we are just one example of information focusing on itself.
It does not seem obvious to me that the early universe contained information. It contained matter and energy arranged in various ways and when we examine or theorise about it we can (by measurement or calculation) assign quantities to these elements. At that moment there is information, but this is information here and now, not in the early universe.

I'm not saying that information requires minds or consciousness. But information is symbolic, digital. It exists in brains, computers, books, DNA. But it does not pervade the physical world. Information systems are a very specific way in which matter can sometimes be organised.
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Sy Borg
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Sy Borg »

Chriswl wrote:
Webplodder wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Looking at the early universe there were many processes which could be said to have been organized in the absence of any 'consciousness', so things like the hydrogen atom have been 'doing their thing' long before any lifeform capable of asking questions about it evolved. In other words, information has been an ancient and persistent part of our universe, in fact, we are just one example of information focusing on itself.
It does not seem obvious to me that the early universe contained information. It contained matter and energy arranged in various ways ...
You accidentally contradicted yourself. Any "arrangement" of material, no matter how temporal, is information. The stuff is energy and however it is ordered (or disordered) is information. Just existing physically involves information - size, shape, density, temperature and so forth.
Eaglerising
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Eaglerising »

There is another possibility that hasn't been examined. Prior to the existence of the non-physical and non-physical was the Consciousness Absolute of Mind Absolute, which is neither physical nor non-physical. It's the primordial source of everything, void of any limitations, making it beyond all comprehension. At best it what is mistakenly called "nothing." It is what created non-physical and the physical. If you understand the immutable law,
As Above, So Below and As Below, As Above
you will discover what I am talking about.
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Sy Borg
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Sy Borg »

Eagle, do you see the "the Consciousness Absolute of Mind Absolute", if it exists, as an informational entity? Normally such things are posited to be beyond space, energy and time and, thus, beyond information.
Eaglerising
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Re: What is Information?

Post by Eaglerising »

Greta – Let's just say that I have some unusual abilities and have access to somethings that others do not. What is important is to treat anything I say as a "possibility" rather than accepting or rejecting it. If you do that, you will be amazed at what you will see and experience because you will be expanding your mind as opposed to limiting it.

The big bang theory is INCOMPLETE because it doesn't take into account what created it. You either see matter creating consciousness or consciousness creating matter. The former is logical, the latter is illogical. You can see this if you apply the immutable law of As Above, So below while examining the atom and quarks.

-- Updated May 28th, 2017, 12:58 am to add the following --

That should read, the former is illogical and the latter is logical.

-- Updated May 28th, 2017, 10:13 am to add the following --

You can approach it like particle physicists, P. Higgs. It’s a background field of some sort, which pervades the universe.

“In this theory, there is such a background field. And the background field, its interaction with all the other stuff that goes through, is responsible for generating the masses and mass differences of the other particles, elementary particles, [those] which are packages of all the energy in other fields. Simply because the background affects the way the waves propagate. But then, the field itself can be excited, or classically to give you waves to the packages of energy of that are the Higgs boson. So it’s an extra which comes with this type of theory, that you need to have something there, which is the excitation of the background field.” – P. Higgs
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