Further evidence that objectivity may be an illusion/myth

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
NicoL
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Re: Further evidence that objectivity may be an illusion/myt

Post by NicoL »

WisdomNotStrife wrote:I never said anything about any process, let alone any process objectively being the process the must be followed.

I simply demarcated the quality/state/condition that gives a perception/inquiry/investigation a marginal degree of objectivity: the influence of who is performing the perception/inquiry/investigation on the outcome is diminished. The process employed--personal observation (like a baseball umpire calling balls and strikes), hermeneutics, rigorous peer-reviewed empirical science, or something else--is beside the point.
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Thanks for your answer, WisdomNotStrife. All I am saying is that there may be a process of inquiry that, when followed, diminishes the influence of the inquirer on the outcome. Which specific process that is, is besides the point, as you say. In addition, us knowing that this process exemplifies objectivity (in your sense, as contrasted with "subjectivity") is beside the point too, as long as it does so, even if we do not know it or cannot prove it. To prove that objectivity is a myth, you would have to provide a modal argument to the effect that there cannot be a process of inquiry that, when followed, diminishes the influence of the inquirer on the outcome. As your thesis is a metaphysical one, I doubt altogether you can provide empirical evidence for it - you have to argue for it deductively.

I find that the argument is either not well founded, or not well stated, or that I do not understand some of your unstated assumptions. Can you provide some literature on the subject, for context?
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Burning ghost
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Re: Further evidence that objectivity may be an illusion/myt

Post by Burning ghost »

To just tag-on to what I said previously ... there is a psychological term called "fixatedness". This means that once we find a heuristic that works well we try to apply it to everything. This is one of the main reasons some people cannot agree on anything. They are simply so attached to a particular heuristic that they cannot fathom another viable approach. Skepticism is the only guard we have against this.
AKA badgerjelly
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Re: Further evidence that objectivity may be an illusion/myt

Post by A Poster He or I »

I've read this discussion so far with interest. Thank you to the participants.

I more-or-less support Burning Ghost's position in this discussion. I, too, have studied Western Philosophy on my own for many years. To my mind, what the WNS calls "objectivity" does not match the meaning I've come to know. Instead, his definition sounds a lot like "intersubjectivity."

Intersubjectivity is a marvelous thing to me, given that I don't believe objectivity to be anything more than a human projection. But I don't understand why WNS believes that 100% verifiable consistency between all possible observers would constitute anything "objective." All possible observers could all be functioning at the physiological limits of their sensorial/cognitive capacity yet still be oblivious to Descartes' Daemon feeding them their experiences.
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WisdomNotStrife
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Re: Further evidence that objectivity may be an illusion/myt

Post by WisdomNotStrife »

Burning ghost wrote:Objectivity is an ideal to work toward not a reality to achieve (so to speak!).



How do we know that we are making progress towards that ideal?

Is that progress measurable/observable with achievements, breakthroughs, milestones, etc. like people say about other kinds of progress ("Moral progress is real. We abolished slavery. We enfranchised women. We ended apartheid").
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Burning ghost
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Re: Further evidence that objectivity may be an illusion/myt

Post by Burning ghost »

Generally we know we are making some kind of "progress" when we have a problem in mind and find a solution. That is what I call "progress". There may very well be better and more expansive solutions, but we take the most practical ones first and use them until a time comes along to try and establish a new solution because maybe the first solution has revealed short falls in other indirect areas where another problem has presented itself.

I think it is fair to say that humans understanding of the physical world, through the natural sciences, has progressed our understanding and allowed us to achieve some very extraordinary things (things that 2000 years ago we'd not even have been able to comprehend.)

The "ideal" is best looked at as a guide line not a destination. In political spheres we have seen many political systems come and go, and even return again. We are quite aware (some at least I hope!) that there is no 'formula' for the perfect society. This does not stop us trying to achieve the best society we can. Someone will always be wanting. If anything many may say that it is the "wanting" of the individual we need to look at more closely rather than simply helping ourselves along to achieve our goals at all costs.

Progress is an infinite task and that is what, for me, makes it worth living. Is it futile? I know I don't know if it is or is not. It is a question that one day we may be able to answer, or maybe not? The smaller and more manageable questions do allude to some over all sense of 'progress', but it may well be an illusion. It doesn't bother me.

If you wish for absolute answers turn to religion. That is generally their attitude. They take an ideal and blindly follow it as an indisputable fact of existence. My view is if you cannot doubt it then either you are working within a rigid abstract set of rules and laws or you're deluded/insane.

Progress is relative in many forms. Morally we don't really have any form of measurement other than basic empathy.
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