JTB: the myth of propositions and the Gettier problem

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Re: JTB: the myth of propositions and the Gettier problem

Post by -1- » July 26th, 2017, 5:19 am

Razblo wrote:
Peter Holmes wrote:The Gettier problem is that some cases of justified true belief don't amount to knowledge, so the JTB definition is inadequate. But I suggest that Gettier-cases really demonstrate the muddle caused by the myth of propositions. (Propositions are factual assertions about features of reality.)

A Gettier-case is a story with dramatic irony. We know the complete situation, but the protagonist doesn't. But there is nothing propositional about the story. The individual's mistaken belief doesn't come from a false premise. And the belief itself is not propositional. Propositional belief is as muddled an idea as propositional knowledge. There are just beliefs and knowledge-claims expressed by means of propositions.

We want to say the individual's belief is true, but that is the myth of propositions at work. What the individual believes is a feature of reality, not a proposition. When we believe or know a feature of reality is the case, we don't believe a proposition. So we don't believe something that is true or false. A feature of reality has no truth value.
What an individual believes is a feature of reality? I can't see how. I see that the existence of a belief is a feature but not what is believed.

Also, a proposition, merely for being proposed, does not make a proposition factual.
Can somebody tell me what JTB stand for? Everyone seems to know it effortlessly, and I can't make A or B of it.

So far I tried to substitute the following to make sense of it:

Jewish Tabernacle Brotherhood
Jackson-Turner-Bachman
Jugular Transference Bigotry
Jamming Toward Bellini
Jaguar-Trained Bobcats
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Re: JTB: the myth of propositions and the Gettier problem

Post by Peter Holmes » July 26th, 2017, 6:01 am

Sorry. JTB is short for justified true belief. Knowledge has been defined as justified true belief, so that someone knows something if it is true, they believe it, and their believing it is justified. Truth, belief and justification are supposed to be the three necessary and jointly sufficient 'conditions' for knowledge. Edmund Gettier argued that some cases of justified true belief don't amount to knowledge, and 'Gettier-cases' are stories or scenarios that supposedly show that. There's some useful stuff online if you google it.

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Re: JTB: the myth of propositions and the Gettier problem

Post by -1- » July 26th, 2017, 3:36 pm

Thanks for explaining, Peter.

I don't believe justified true belief exists or is possible to exist in our minds. No knowledge is truly (without an ability to doubt it) extant to us that pertains to the empirical world, other than the knowledge that the self exists.

It is so because when we sense reality, we have no working test developed to see if the reality we see is in fact reality or a figment of our minds. Our minds may direct us to see things that are not there, and it is conceivable that it is not even a function of our will.

So JTB is a false proposition other than "cogito ergo sum". Claiming anything else about the empirical world has just as much chance to be true as to be false. Therefore the "true" is never attainable in the JTB.

Now, if you want to talk about GLTB, that's a different thing. Or about BLT (as in sammiches).
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Re: JTB: the myth of propositions and the Gettier problem

Post by Peter Holmes » September 8th, 2017, 8:08 am

Just to say, I've set out a full discussion of the epistemology underpinning my OP at:

http://www.simplesite.com/builder/pages ... stats.aspx

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Re: JTB: the myth of propositions and the Gettier problem

Post by Peter Holmes » April 16th, 2018, 10:21 am

I think I posted the wrong link for a full discussion of my OP. It's called 'Justified true belief - knowledge and the myth of propositions'.

http://www.peasum.co.uk/435531068

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