Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
-1-
Posts: 878
Joined: December 1st, 2016, 2:23 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by -1- »

Razblo wrote:
-1- wrote: What makes up ME, without the addition of mind, spirit and body?

That is my quest. To find that out.
1. By "mind" do you mean the noise of your thinking?

2. I assume by "body" you mean the physical thing that is felt out to the boundary we presume is the outer surface of skin. Is this so?

3. What do you define as "spirit"?

You see, I cannot see how we can define you, or I, without understanding the terms used already to supposedly define ourselves.
It behoves me to answer your questions, as I have proposed the dilemma.

1. By mind I mean the spirit, in a totally non-religious sense.

2. Yes, that is your assumption (this is what you asked, literally.) :-) the answer to what you probably meant to ask, "is this assumption right" is, yes, your assumption was dead on right.

3. Spirit is a religious concept, but it can be used by secular thinkers as well. It is the combination and sum total of one's perceptive, mental, and emotional faculties. This includes the capacity and ability and interest to think, to act on motivations, to perceive surroundings, feelings and emotions, to empathize, to translate from nerve impulses to mental images, mental maps and at its most simple, actual feelings.

Perhaps I should mention that according to my defining these words (per your request), religious people (most likely, esp. Christians) mean by spirit all of the preceding under point 3., and also that part of the person which does not die when the person dies, and that part of the person which has the potential capacity and capability to directly communicate with god. To seculars, the spirit has more-or-less the same function as what the religious believe it has, except for eternal life and for any involvement with the supernatural.
This search engine is powered by Hunger, Thirst, and a desperate need to Mate.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Eduk »

I simply feel it is reasonable to concede that death is tricky to conceptualise. Granted not in a simplistic sense but certainly as a full subject.
context matters and the intended meaning of the op is surely up for question. But that is what should be questioned in my opinion.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
-1-
Posts: 878
Joined: December 1st, 2016, 2:23 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by -1- »

-1- wrote:Burning Ghost, I don't have the confident knowledge that you possess of death.
Perhaps I did not express myself clearly. And I unwittingly upset you and insulted you.

I have no doubt in my mind that you have a confident knowledge of what death is, as you have been stating that over and over again. I don't want to challenge that, can't, and won't.

All I was trying to say was that I don't have that confident knowledge. You do, and that's fine, but I don't.

-----------

You say the concept of death and dying is for the living. I agree. I would further claim that that feature of dying and of death is not unique. All concepts we use and think of are for the living.
This search engine is powered by Hunger, Thirst, and a desperate need to Mate.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Burning ghost »

You insulted me? Thanks :)
AKA badgerjelly
User avatar
Razblo
Posts: 157
Joined: July 11th, 2017, 8:52 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Razblo »

-1- wrote:
Razblo wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

1. By "mind" do you mean the noise of your thinking?

2. I assume by "body" you mean the physical thing that is felt out to the boundary we presume is the outer surface of skin. Is this so?

3. What do you define as "spirit"?

You see, I cannot see how we can define you, or I, without understanding the terms used already to supposedly define ourselves.
It behoves me to answer your questions, as I have proposed the dilemma.

1. By mind I mean the spirit, in a totally non-religious sense.


So effectively we can cancel out 'mind' as a category, according to that.
-1- wrote:2. Yes, that is your assumption (this is what you asked, literally.) :-) the answer to what you probably meant to ask, "is this assumption right" is, yes, your assumption was dead on right.

3. Spirit is a religious concept, but it can be used by secular thinkers as well. It is the combination and sum total of one's perceptive, mental, and emotional faculties. This includes the capacity and ability and interest to think, to act on motivations, to perceive surroundings, feelings and emotions, to empathize, to translate from nerve impulses to mental images, mental maps and at its most simple, actual feelings.
"Capacity to think"? How can that be measured to even see if such a container exists? What is "capacity" in the sentence "capacity to think"? Does it mean ability? If so, is not ability to think just another way of measuring IQ or something similar?

"Interest to think"? Is not "interest" thinking in and of itself? That sentence to me is saying "thinking to think".

Ask this. How is there even awareness of thought, emotional feeling, motivation, perception of surroundings etc, etc? Is it not just that there is body, given that all such things arise in the body?

Why blur and complicate the most obvious with attempts to break "you" up into "Mind", "Body" and "Spirit"? In your first answer to my response you have already eliminated one of these distractions, abstraction, complication, by incorporating "mind" into "spirit" so, to me, it makes sense to abstract and complicate things even less.

Just say (therefore think) "you-body" (or I-body). Simply a body, a body with a name given to it by others for communication convenience.

You apparently proposed, as you put it, the dilemma.

So let's de-dilemmarize then. Let's answer this question of yours. "What makes up ME, without the addition of mind, spirit and body?"

The answer, it seems to me, is: Don't add. Don't make "additions".

Maybe the real dilemma is that we tend to fall into the trap in thinking that by making things simple we make ourselves simple, as in seem unintelligent. Maybe we like dilemmas because it causes us to think up abstractions and we then get enamored with our abstractions - become them as an ego (abstraction badges of honor and distinction - distinct from an other). Maybe by doing so we find something to feel individual about - an identity.

But all this sort of identity is really, to my mind, a mere trick. An abstraction. An Abstract identity. A way to be busy in the thought of it. Something or someone complicated therefore might be a particularly interesting person (interesting to others, maybe, because other bodies might look at us rather quizzically giving us the self reflection we didn't realize we were desiring - to be special - of special interest). Maybe it is just a distraction from the stress associated with the harder facts of survival, such as where and how to get money.

Here is a possible breakdown then. Bodies looking for resources, protecting accumulated resources, while losing ourselves in abstracted identities as an entertainment distraction from instinct survival imperatives.

I think an inroad you have made into solving this dilemma is the elimination of point 1.
User avatar
-1-
Posts: 878
Joined: December 1st, 2016, 2:23 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by -1- »

Razblo wrote: I think an inroad you have made into solving this dilemma is the elimination of point 1.
What is point one? Your assumption under point one? That can't be the road to the solution.

Proof:

It is given that we have eliminated point one, but we have not eliminated point three.
But point one is the same as point three (as per your assertion elsewhere, Razblo).

So if a solution exists with eliminating point one, then point three must also be eliminated, as it is the same as point one.

But point three is not eliminated.

Therefore the solution does not exist by eliminating point one.

------------------------------
Razblo: "How can that be measured to even see if such a container exists?" What container are you talking about? Something containing something else, or what?

Why would interest be thinking? I am interested in eating an apple. Am I thinking in eating the apple?

Razblo: "Ask this. How is there even awareness of thought, emotional feeling, motivation, perception of surroundings etc, etc? Is it not just that there is body, given that all such things arise in the body?" I actually don't understand this question, as stated. I can assign meanings to it. In my opinion, you are saying that the mind is the function of the body, and as such, only the body exists. I understand this, that this is your stance.

You made a proposal to the solution to the dilemma, and I thank you very much. This is what I believe you came up with as a solution:

Razblo: "Here is a possible breakdown then. Bodies looking for resources, protecting accumulated resources, while losing ourselves in abstracted identities as an entertainment distraction from instinct survival imperatives."

You said earlier that it is the body that forms the "I". Fine.

So when you say, Rasblo: "Bodies looking for resources, protecting accumulated resources, while losing ourselves in abstracted identities as an entertainment distraction from instinct survival imperatives." then you are asserting that bodies are losing bodies, their own bodies. Because earlier you equated "ourselves" with our "bodies", so if we lose ourselves, we lose our bodies.

But that is clearly not the case. I can always find my body, no need to organize a search party for that.

So by your definition we are our bodies, but by your argument it is clearly not the case.
This search engine is powered by Hunger, Thirst, and a desperate need to Mate.
User avatar
Razblo
Posts: 157
Joined: July 11th, 2017, 8:52 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Razblo »

-1- wrote:
Razblo wrote: I think an inroad you have made into solving this dilemma is the elimination of point 1.
What is point one? Your assumption under point one? That can't be the road to the solution.

Proof:

It is given that we have eliminated point one, but we have not eliminated point three.
But point one is the same as point three (as per your assertion elsewhere, Razblo).

So if a solution exists with eliminating point one, then point three must also be eliminated, as it is the same as point one.

But point three is not eliminated.

Therefore the solution does not exist by eliminating point one.


Initially you had made 3 additions to you. Mind, body and spirit. Then you clarified mind as being spirit. Ok, so swap 1 with 3 or 3 with 1. It is still reduced, by yourself, to two additions.

------------------------------
-1- wrote:Razblo: "How can that be measured to even see if such a container exists?" What container are you talking about? Something containing something else, or what?
Capacity meaning: 'the maximum amount that something can contain'. Capacity must presume a container. I did ask you whether by "capacity" you meant "ability". You didn't answer this question.
-1- wrote:Why would interest be thinking? I am interested in eating an apple. Am I thinking in eating the apple?
How is one aware of their interest in eating an apple?
-1- wrote:Razblo: "Ask this. How is there even awareness of thought, emotional feeling, motivation, perception of surroundings etc, etc? Is it not just that there is body, given that all such things arise in the body?" I actually don't understand this question, as stated. I can assign meanings to it. In my opinion, you are saying that the mind is the function of the body, and as such, only the body exists. I understand this, that this is your stance.

You made a proposal to the solution to the dilemma, and I thank you very much. This is what I believe you came up with as a solution:

Razblo: "Here is a possible breakdown then. Bodies looking for resources, protecting accumulated resources, while losing ourselves in abstracted identities as an entertainment distraction from instinct survival imperatives."

You said earlier that it is the body that forms the "I". Fine.

So when you say, Rasblo: "Bodies looking for resources, protecting accumulated resources, while losing ourselves in abstracted identities as an entertainment distraction from instinct survival imperatives." then you are asserting that bodies are losing bodies, their own bodies. Because earlier you equated "ourselves" with our "bodies", so if we lose ourselves, we lose our bodies.
Losing oneself in thought is usually an accepted analogy or metaphor for losing awareness of physical place or condition.
-1- wrote:But that is clearly not the case. I can always find my body, no need to organize a search party for that.
One generally 'comes back to body' once thought is arrested (or it is realized one was "lost in thought").


-1- wrote:So by your definition we are our bodies, but by your argument it is clearly not the case.
Where was I not clear?
User avatar
Socrateaze
Posts: 132
Joined: July 25th, 2017, 8:07 am
Favorite Philosopher: George Carlin

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Socrateaze »

-1- wrote:I have a body. My body is not me; it is my body, so I own it, therefore it is not me, much like a book of matches I own is not me, and much like a car I own is not me.

Similarly, I have a mind and I have a spirit. They are not me; they are mine.

So who is I?

I can't exist without a mind, body and spirit, yet I am separate from them.

What makes up ME, without the addition of mind, spirit and body?

That is my quest. To find that out.
The android says, "I have a body. My body is not me; it is my body, so I own it." If we put the android's memories into another "brain," it has another body... The point. If we could take our mind and put it into another body, would that body be ours? If head transplants or body transplants were possible, (and the are talking about this by the way), would the body be yours? At the very least they would have to get blood type compatibility right? So if the basic blood type and genetics apply also to the brain that needs to adapt with the new body, maybe my body belongs to me after all.

Do different people from different DNA and genetics have different thoughts? If so, is there some kind of physical level that connects with the apparent abstract thought? Is it our body that governs our thoughts, or is it our thoughts that govern our body? Personally I don't think thoughts are separate from our bodies. As for spirits and souls, I don't believe in them. What we receive here is what we're going to get. Though I do "believe" in the "spirit" of environment and how it can change us and how we can change it.
418


- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Burning ghost »

When I take any given object and destroy it, when does it cease "being" said object. Let us say we burn a book. When does the book stop being a book and become merely "fuel" or "ash".

Obviously the phsyical substance could theoretically be gathered up and put in a neat little pile. We could hardly be justified in calling the pile "a book". We could say the "spirit" of the book has gone. The book is "dead". We may remember the book and have fond thoughts about the words it contained. The body of the book has gone even though its contents live on through us in some form or another, maybe accurately or maybe somewhat altered.

There are many ways to view this. We could say that the "use" made of the book determines what it is. If used as fuel for a fire it is merely kindling, it doesn't matter to me as a book. If I want to keep the door open it may well become a "doorstop", its "bookness" of no significance to me at all maybe? A dog chewing on a book does not consider it as we do, nor does an illiterate child or a congenially blindman who has been brought up in some isolated tribal community, or for that matter any member of his tribe possibly (although they would at least be able to recognise it as a rather peculiar object compared to what they are used to in day-to-day life.
AKA badgerjelly
User avatar
Razblo
Posts: 157
Joined: July 11th, 2017, 8:52 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Razblo »

It seems logical to me that the body is it's perceptions. So I am my perceptions. So this is to also say that I am everything being perceived.

Consequently I cannot be the "possessor" of my perceptions. It is not even accurate to say "My perceptions". I can't be owning them. Ownership suggests a degree of choice. The "world" is just happening. Experience of it is just happening. It is occurring. I am occurring.

I feel this is just logical, not fruity spiritual. As such it can be something which can reasonably be argued, as apposed to arguing whether there are gods or designers and therefore fall back on culture and beliefs.

What could be a reasonable argument against I being whatever is experienced? I can't think of one.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Steve3007 »

One possible argument against the idea that you are the sum of your perceptions:

If this is true, how is it possible to take large subsets of all those perceptions and use them to create a model of a real world, speculating that those perceptions are caused by that real world and allowing us to predict possible future perceptions? What is it that is doing this? Can a collection of perceptions do it?
User avatar
Razblo
Posts: 157
Joined: July 11th, 2017, 8:52 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Razblo »

Steve3007 wrote:One possible argument against the idea that you are the sum of your perceptions:

If this is true, how is it possible to take large subsets of all those perceptions and use them to create a model of a real world, speculating that those perceptions are caused by that real world and allowing us to predict possible future perceptions? What is it that is doing this? Can a collection of perceptions do it?
The "real" question. Is that just the "what is reality?" question?

Is not the question "What is it that is doing this?" the designer or no designer argument?

Subsets of "all those perceptions"? I'm only aware of perception. What other perceptions are you aware of other than the perception you are aware of right now?
Are you anything other than what is perceived?

Whilst one is considering concepts such as "large subsets of all those perceptions and use them to create a model of a real world", is that consideration process not just an example of your experience as you?

-- Updated August 5th, 2017, 6:36 am to add the following --

What are you trying to solve? The what is you or the how is everything what it is?

I was only looking to address the 'what am I/you?' question. Presumably the topic question.
User avatar
Socrateaze
Posts: 132
Joined: July 25th, 2017, 8:07 am
Favorite Philosopher: George Carlin

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Socrateaze »

Burning ghost wrote:When I take any given object and destroy it, when does it cease "being" said object. Let us say we burn a book. When does the book stop being a book and become merely "fuel" or "ash".

Obviously the phsyical substance could theoretically be gathered up and put in a neat little pile. We could hardly be justified in calling the pile "a book". We could say the "spirit" of the book has gone. The book is "dead". We may remember the book and have fond thoughts about the words it contained. The body of the book has gone even though its contents live on through us in some form or another, maybe accurately or maybe somewhat altered.

There are many ways to view this. We could say that the "use" made of the book determines what it is. If used as fuel for a fire it is merely kindling, it doesn't matter to me as a book. If I want to keep the door open it may well become a "doorstop", its "bookness" of no significance to me at all maybe? A dog chewing on a book does not consider it as we do, nor does an illiterate child or a congenially blindman who has been brought up in some isolated tribal community, or for that matter any member of his tribe possibly (although they would at least be able to recognise it as a rather peculiar object compared to what they are used to in day-to-day life.
Who wrote the book, is he/she still alive? Are there more copies of the book? Does its contents survive in the people who read it? What about the initial idea before it was a book in the mind of the "author" and where did the author/s get the idea? If my body is a book and I have "writing inside me;" when I share my ideas with others or write my thoughts down and I die, do my thoughts not live on? Who wrote me and who wrote them? What is an empty book? Is a book still a book when it is empty void of text? Are we both a pen and a book? Who or what was the first pen and from what book did they write? Did the first pen belong to himself? Did the first "body" belong to itself? Are there "books" that cannot be burned?
418


- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Burning ghost »

Socrateaze -

I am not very fond of turning the comparison into a mystical analogy. I was pointing out that we know things in day-to-day life that come to an inevitable end and that things are defined by their usage.

All of the things mentioned in the OP are meaningful. What seems to have happened is something like taking "walking" and saying it means something rather than understanding it as a description of an action carried out bodily. There also appears to be some attempt to view the situation as dualism.
AKA badgerjelly
User avatar
Socrateaze
Posts: 132
Joined: July 25th, 2017, 8:07 am
Favorite Philosopher: George Carlin

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Socrateaze »

Burning ghost wrote:Socrateaze -

I am not very fond of turning the comparison into a mystical analogy. I was pointing out that we know things in day-to-day life that come to an inevitable end and that things are defined by their usage.

All of the things mentioned in the OP are meaningful. What seems to have happened is something like taking "walking" and saying it means something rather than understanding it as a description of an action carried out bodily. There also appears to be some attempt to view the situation as dualism.
If the body, as the op suggests, does not belong to us, is that not mystical in itself? When is something day-to-day things and when is something not a day-to-day thing, that seems to be the question here. If my body is a day-to-day thing, it is ordinary, not extraordinary and it belongs to me; if it does not belong to me it is a mystical notion. Do you agree?
418


- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021