Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Namelesss »

-1- wrote:I have a body. My body is not me; it is my body, so I own it, therefore it is not me, much like a book of matches I own is not me, and much like a car I own is not me.

Similarly, I have a mind and I have a spirit. They are not me; they are mine.

So who is I?

I can't exist without a mind, body and spirit, yet I am separate from them.

What makes up ME, without the addition of mind, spirit and body?

That is my quest. To find that out.
"Cogito Ergo Sum!"
"I think, therefore I am!" - Descartes

This saying is exactly true, as it refers to the egoic construct of autonomous existence of a 'self', an 'I', as opposed to a 'you'/'other'.
'Ego' is the same, one and the same, as 'thought'!
Hence 'thought' being where this (egoic) 'self' exists. That is the 'I' to which the quote refers!
No 'thought/ego' = no egoic 'I'!
There can be no 'I' without 'thought'.
Thought, though, does not 'create' the egoic "I", they are one and the same, as perceived!
We don't 'think outside the box', 'thought' IS the box!

The above referenced 'I', or small 's' 'self' cannot exist in a thoughtless state, such as a Zen state where no such distinctions can be perceived.
There only exists 'one', (capital 'S') 'Self!', which is 'Universally all inclusive'. Which does not disappear when 'thought' is no longer perceived!
Ask any successful meditator, or check it out yourself.
Capisce'?

It is 'thought' that says, "I am not that!"

"Thou Art That!"

tat tvam asi
Synthesis
Posts: 189
Joined: July 15th, 2017, 12:54 pm

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Synthesis »

Atreyu wrote: Well, the "I" that we imagine ourselves to be is simply illusion. But this does not mean that there is not really some-thing which is experiencing things. In fact, simple logic says there must be. Some-thing is doing the observing, analyzing, thinking, feeling, and recognizing, and whatever this some-thing is, it cannot be the same thing as that which it is analyzing, thinking about, feeling, or recognizing...
Whatever "it" is, is well beyond our capacities to understand, when added to the infinite list of things not-understandable, should cause the human mind to pause...permanently.

But, human beings, being the bizarre creatures we are, take Reality, simply and pure, and turn it into Heaven and Hell.
User avatar
Atreyu
Posts: 1737
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Atreyu »

Namelesss wrote: "Cogito Ergo Sum!"
"I think, therefore I am!" - Descartes

This saying is exactly true, as it refers to the egoic construct of autonomous existence of a 'self', an 'I', as opposed to a 'you'/'other'.
'Ego' is the same, one and the same, as 'thought'!
Hence 'thought' being where this (egoic) 'self' exists. That is the 'I' to which the quote refers!
No 'thought/ego' = no egoic 'I'!
There can be no 'I' without 'thought'.
Thought, though, does not 'create' the egoic "I", they are one and the same, as perceived!
We don't 'think outside the box', 'thought' IS the box!

The above referenced 'I', or small 's' 'self' cannot exist in a thoughtless state, such as a Zen state where no such distinctions can be perceived.
There only exists 'one', (capital 'S') 'Self!', which is 'Universally all inclusive'. Which does not disappear when 'thought' is no longer perceived!
Ask any successful meditator, or check it out yourself.
Capisce'?

It is 'thought' that says, "I am not that!"

"Thou Art That!"

tat tvam asi
I agree. Good post.

It's nice to see someone else here who gets the gist of what meditation and other Eastern practices are all about....
User avatar
Freudian Monkey
Posts: 57
Joined: December 7th, 2017, 3:14 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Freudian Monkey »

Burning ghost wrote: July 29th, 2017, 3:29 pm One place to start would be to say there is no "I" without language.
I don't think this is correct. I thought the same way before when I was getting into semiotics and Lacan, but on further reflection I don't think consciousness is dependent on language. Language has evolved as a result of thought, not the other way around. How could language develop if there's no consciousness and thought that needs expression? You can look at something you don't understand and that you have no terms to describe. Your mind will immediately start to try to describe it in terms of language, but the experience is there even before the mind starts to structure and classify the experience through language.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by RJG »

Freudian Monkey wrote:Language has evolved as a result of thought, not the other way around
What language do your thoughts speak?

Without language, there can be no thoughts.
User avatar
Freudian Monkey
Posts: 57
Joined: December 7th, 2017, 3:14 am

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Freudian Monkey »

RJG wrote: December 8th, 2017, 9:57 am
Freudian Monkey wrote:Language has evolved as a result of thought, not the other way around
What language do your thoughts speak?

Without language, there can be no thoughts.
I know some people believe so. I disagree.
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Tamminen »

'I' denotes the subject of thoughts, feelings, perceptions, memories, dreams, phantasies etc. It is the reference point of all experiences, expressing the fact that they are my experiences here and now. 'I' can denote the subject of my personal experiences, defining me as 'Tamminen', but it can also denote the universal subject that happens to have just these experiences here and now, whatever individual subject is having them. This is the absolute I in the sense that it is the precondition of all being, one of the unremovable members of the subject-object relation, making the world essentially my world, to use Wittgenstein's phrase.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by RJG »

Tamminen wrote:'I' denotes the subject of thoughts, feelings, perceptions, memories, dreams, phantasies etc. It is the reference point of all experiences, expressing the fact that they are my experiences here and now. 'I' can denote the subject of my personal experiences, defining me as 'Tamminen', but it can also denote the universal subject that happens to have just these experiences here and now, whatever individual subject is having them.
Agreed, ..."I" is simply the 'experiencer'; the 'thing' that experiences, ...and NOTHING more!!!

Tamminen wrote:This is the absolute I in the sense that it is the precondition of all being, one of the unremovable members of the subject-object relation, making the world essentially my world, to use Wittgenstein's phrase.
To clarify -- without an object, there can be no subject, and without a subject there can be no object. Without an "up", there can be no "down". Both are contingent on the other.
Last edited by RJG on December 8th, 2017, 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Sy Borg »

Freudian Monkey wrote: December 8th, 2017, 1:35 pm
RJG wrote: December 8th, 2017, 9:57 amWhat language do your thoughts speak?

Without language, there can be no thoughts.
I know some people believe so. I disagree.
I agree with Monkey. I have a memory from my pre-verbal life, in a pram, next to a wall with pen in hand, held like a dagger, circling on the wall, over and over. I had mixed feelings about the bumpiness of the render, which I found both fun and frustrating. There were definitely thoughts - noticing the nature of things around me.

After all, what are eloquent thoughts but translated non verbal thoughts dressed in language? First you have sensations and then language is applied.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:Without language, there can be no thoughts.
Freudian Monkey wrote:I know some people believe so. I disagree.
Greta wrote:I agree with Monkey. I have a memory from my pre-verbal life, in a pram, next to a wall with pen in hand, held like a dagger, circling on the wall, over and over. I had mixed feelings about the bumpiness of the render, which I found both fun and frustrating. There were definitely thoughts - noticing the nature of things around me.
So then you 'recognized' your own thoughts? ...you 'knew' what you were thinking? ...if so, then you have language!

Without language, your sensory impressions would be pure gobbledygook.
Without language, you wouldn't be able to understand/comprehend your own thoughts.

Greta wrote:First you have sensations and then language is applied.
Interesting point. Language is 'comprised' of sensations, not necessarily "applied" to sensations. Language 'is' the composition of associated 'sensations' from which 'meanings' (new sensations) are formed.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Sy Borg »

RJG wrote: December 8th, 2017, 6:55 pm
RJG wrote:Without language, there can be no thoughts.
Greta wrote:I have a memory from my pre-verbal life, in a pram, next to a wall with pen in hand, held like a dagger, circling on the wall, over and over. I had mixed feelings about the bumpiness of the render, which I found both fun and frustrating. There were definitely thoughts - noticing the nature of things around me.
So then you 'recognized' your own thoughts? ...you 'knew' what you were thinking? ...if so, then you have language!

Without language, your sensory impressions would be pure gobbledygook.
Without language, you wouldn't be able to understand/comprehend your own thoughts.
It's difficult to say what I recognised at that time, other than an awareness of myself within the room and the feeling of the render. If there was language involved, it wasn't English.
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Tamminen »

Greta wrote: December 8th, 2017, 6:40 pm After all, what are eloquent thoughts but translated non verbal thoughts dressed in language? First you have sensations and then language is applied.
I agree. Einstein had to struggle ten years until he succeeded to translate his thoughts about gravitation into mathematical language. Even I have had some clear thoughts that are extremely difficult to put into words. So I think thoughts precede language.
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Tamminen »

RJG wrote: December 8th, 2017, 4:56 pm "I" is simply the 'experiencer'; the 'thing' that experiences
There are those who think that the subject is indeed something "thing-like", emerging from matter, whereas I think it is essentially more fundamental and has nothing to do with matter, except that it needs the material world for its being. It is the non-substantial point of view to the world, the origin of consciousness. Consciousness is my consciousness of the world.

Wittgenstein writes in his Notebooks that there are two divinities, the world of facts and the metaphysical, point-like subject that does not belong to the world.
Wayne92587
Posts: 1780
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Wayne92587 »

I is me as an Individual, the mind and Body, (a Fractal) existing as the Whole of a Single Reality.
As above so below, as below so above 1/1, existing as a Duality, a Singularity having a dual quality.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Who is I? The possessor of my body, mind, and spirit?

Post by Sy Borg »

Tamminen wrote: December 9th, 2017, 6:05 am
Greta wrote: December 8th, 2017, 6:40 pm After all, what are eloquent thoughts but translated non verbal thoughts dressed in language? First you have sensations and then language is applied.
I agree. Einstein had to struggle ten years until he succeeded to translate his thoughts about gravitation into mathematical language. Even I have had some clear thoughts that are extremely difficult to put into words. So I think thoughts precede language.
Yes, there is no sharp distinction between language, nonverbal pattern recognition and nonverbal signalling that is not intended as communication but "read" as such by observers.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021