Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

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RJG
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by RJG »

Togo1 wrote:I'm saying that a purely unconscious system still has a time delay. The body doesn't process real time information any more than consciousness does.
Togo, yes, absolutely correct, BUT my point has NOTHING to do with this/your time delay of ‘sequential’ events happening in reality, nor the ‘sequential’ events happening in consciousness.

My point has to do with the time delay between ‘reality’-to-‘consciousness’ (not reality-to-reality, nor consciousness-to-consciousness). This is about the time delay of those events happening in reality (in ‘real-time’) to those corresponding events happening in the conscious mind of the observer (in ‘conscious-time’).

For example, when our hand makes contact with the table, it takes 150-200 ms for our brain to process the ‘recognition’ of this touch (the contact with the table). This means that there exists a CTD (conscious time delay) of 150-200 ms. Again, this time delay is between the reality of your hand touching the table and your consciousness of this reality.

The logic goes like this:
  • P1. “Instantaneous” detection/sensing is not logically (nor scientifically) possible. This includes human conscious experiences (sensing/detecting). A ‘time delay’ is an unavoidable fact.

    P2. None of our conscious processes are ‘exempt’ from this ‘time delay’, as ALL processes consume time.

    C. Therefore, our ‘present’ conscious experience(s) are of ‘past’ events. EVERYTHING that we are conscious of, has already happened.
Togo1 wrote:Comparing the three (the events happening in reality, events happening according to the body's visual equipment, and the events happening in the conscious mind of the catcher) on a single timeline. Here is what we get:
Togo, the “events happening in the body’s visual equipment” ARE happening in REALITY; ‘real-time’. There are only 2 time lines; 1) reality, and 2) the consciousness of this reality.

Togo1 wrote:According to you, catching baseballs is impossible.
Not so. The body moves, and then (250 ms later) the body becomes conscious of moving, then the body catches the baseball, and then (250 ms later) the body becomes conscious of catching the baseball. Etc etc. etc. onward for-ever-er

Present awareness wrote:Consciousness “is” the present moment, because everything is contained within it.
To be more accurate -- "Consciousness" is the 'present' memory of 'past' events.

Also, it is not that "everything is contained within it", it is just our (time delayed) window view of reality. It is the only view we've got.
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Present awareness
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Present awareness »

Let’s imagine a bridge over a river. The bridge represents consciousness and the water directly below, the present moment. The water that has gone by is the past and the water not yet there, the future. You may also notice the that the future, present and past, flow by in an unbroken stream, in constant motion. The bridge, which is the still point of consciousness, does not move. Everything flows to and from this still point. Consciousness is aware of the present moment, at the bridge, whatever form that may take, however, if it were possible to stand outside of consciousness, and get a birds eye view, one would see that the future, present and past all exist at the same time.

To say that in 20ms, before the water reaches the bridge, the water will reach the bridge in 20 ms, is a self fulfilling prophecy.
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Consul
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Consul »

Present awareness wrote:Let’s imagine a bridge over a river. The bridge represents consciousness and the water directly below, the present moment. The water that has gone by is the past and the water not yet there, the future. You may also notice the that the future, present and past, flow by in an unbroken stream, in constant motion. The bridge, which is the still point of consciousness, does not move. Everything flows to and from this still point. Consciousness is aware of the present moment, at the bridge, whatever form that may take, however, if it were possible to stand outside of consciousness, and get a birds eye view, one would see that the future, present and past all exist at the same time.
Alvin Goldman writes that "the 'organ' of introspection is attention" (*, and I fail to see why the spotlight of attention cannot illuminate the present moment, the "now-slice" of an experiential process.

(* Simulating Minds: The Philosophy, Psychology, and Neuroscience of Mindreading, Oxford UP, 2006, p. 244)
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Togo1
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Togo1 »

Ok, you've not grasped my point. Let me try again.
RJG wrote:My point has to do with the time delay between ‘reality’-to-‘consciousness’ (not reality-to-reality, nor consciousness-to-consciousness). This is about the time delay of those events happening in reality (in ‘real-time’) to those corresponding events happening in the conscious mind of the observer (in ‘conscious-time’).
Yes, and MY point is about the delay between events happening in reality, and events happening inside the brain. Because perception is not real time, there is a delay.

I'm asking you to acknowledge this delay, and state why the logic around your reality to consciousness delay does not equally apply to the reality to perception delay.
Present awareness wrote:Consciousness “is” the present moment, because everything is contained within it.
To be more accurate -- "Consciousness" is the 'present' memory of 'past' events.

Also, it is not that "everything is contained within it", it is just our (time delayed) window view of reality. It is the only view we've got.[/quote]

That's great, but since it's true, not just of consciousness, but of all the body's systems without exception, I'm trying to work out why you feel this is significant?
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Present awareness
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Present awareness »

To say there is a time delay to conscious perception, is like saying there is a 100 year time delay to your birth, because 100 years went by before you were born. If time actually existed, it would be impossible for you to be born at all, since an infinite amount of time would have had to gone by before your birth. Everyone on earth, exists in the present moment, even though it is daytime here and nighttime there. If I phone someone on the other side of the earth, I don’t have to wait 12 hours for a reply.
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Chili
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Chili »

Present awareness wrote:To say there is a time delay to conscious perception, is like saying there is a 100 year time delay to your birth, because 100 years went by before you were born. If time actually existed, it would be impossible for you to be born at all, since an infinite amount of time would have had to gone by before your birth. Everyone on earth, exists in the present moment, even though it is daytime here and nighttime there. If I phone someone on the other side of the earth, I don’t have to wait 12 hours for a reply.
;) I hate to bother your meditation with some intellectual baggage, but a delay always refers to a difference between 2 times, and moreover there is a chain of cause and effect between them. So what kind of delays are involved in conscious perception? Those between and event, and the time it takes for news (sound, radiation, newsfeed, whatever) of that event to reach your conscious awareness. You do have to wait for your voice to reach the other person. News anchors talking via satellite to correspondents on the other side of the world certainly *do* have to wait, as anyone with any even minor worldly experience (or just couch/tv experience!) will testify.
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Present awareness
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Present awareness »

I completely agree with you, Chili, as far as the concept of time goes, for it helps us to make sense of the world in a practical way. However, time does not exist outside of the concept.

The illusion of time is created by space. Everything in the universe, is here and now, separated only by space. The light bouncing off of your body at this moment, will be 186,000 miles away in one second from now. It won’t be in the past though, just a rather large distance away from you. The light leaving the sun at this moment, is not in the future, it’s just a large distance away from earth and has not yet arrived. The second hand on a clock, is just a piece of wire, moving through space in a circle, which is a miniature representation of the earth orbiting the sun. Put some arbitrary marks on the surface of the clock, and there is a useful way to measure things moving through space, which we call time. In reality, time does not pass by, things simply move through space, and no matter where you are in space, the time is now.
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Chili
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Chili »

Present awareness wrote:In reality, time does not pass by, things simply move through space, and no matter where you are in space, the time is now.
I don't know if you are "aware" of Einstein's "relativity of simultaneity", or that's simply a topic for neurotic "thinkers".

Anyway, it turns out that there is no simple "now" shared among observers in all "inertial frames". "Now" has gone out the window in physics many decades ago.

If I am happy to define the cosmic "now" in terms of what the clock stuck into navel says, I guess I may have no complaint.

If I am spiritual enough, I will have no complaint as I die of smallpox or some other disease that I haven't bothered to try to understand or prevent.
Togo1
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Togo1 »

Chili wrote:and moreover there is a chain of cause and effect between them.
Technically, what we have is a correlation. And not a strong one. Given can get the same neurological trace in other ways seems unlikely that one causes the other.
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Present awareness
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Present awareness »

As humans, we have the ability to think of abstract concepts, which gives us a big advantage over other animals and has been a key to our survival. Regardless of how well we define a word like consciousness or any other word, they are simply sounds, which are trying to represent things which are not sounds. Language is an extremely useful tool for conveying ideas which has lead to all the advances in technology, but in the same way that a picture of food won’t satisfy hunger, concepts of reality are not reality itself. As John Lennon put it “life is what happens to us while we’re busy making other plans”.
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Chili
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Chili »

Togo1 wrote:
Chili wrote:and moreover there is a chain of cause and effect between them.
Technically, what we have is a correlation. And not a strong one. Given can get the same neurological trace in other ways seems unlikely that one causes the other.
I was speaking in a 10,000 way to "Perfect Awareness" who eschews "thinking things through" generally.

-- Updated October 17th, 2017, 1:40 pm to add the following --
Present awareness wrote:As humans, we have the ability to think of abstract concepts, which gives us a big advantage over other animals and has been a key to our survival. Regardless of how well we define a word like consciousness or any other word, they are simply sounds, which are trying to represent things which are not sounds. Language is an extremely useful tool for conveying ideas which has lead to all the advances in technology, but in the same way that a picture of food won’t satisfy hunger, concepts of reality are not reality itself. As John Lennon put it “life is what happens to us while we’re busy making other plans”.
Human habits (I'm allergic to the word abilities) in tool making to modern technology have their test in the food which arrives at our table (also shelter etc) *because* of them. Your outlook strikes me still that you are being served and don't bother to understand the process which leads to your servants having the food to bring you - or else perhaps you are rapidly starving as you sit in your cave and wait for food to arrive, perhaps?
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Present awareness
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Present awareness »

I dial a number and pizza arrives at my cave. It’s magical. The government gives me funny coloured plastic each month (in Canada) and I give the pizza guy funny coloured plastic and he drives away happy. It’s magical. This system only works because we all have faith that the funny coloured plastic has value. Lose faith in that concept and the world is in trouble. In fact, our entire life is built around faith in concepts, like language, math, time, religion etc. The concept of memory is what makes all the other concepts possible. Take away your memory and all you have is this moment.
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Chili
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Chili »

Present awareness wrote:I dial a number and pizza arrives at my cave. It’s magical. The government gives me funny coloured plastic each month (in Canada) and I give the pizza guy funny coloured plastic and he drives away happy. It’s magical. This system only works because we all have faith that the funny coloured plastic has value. Lose faith in that concept and the world is in trouble. In fact, our entire life is built around faith in concepts, like language, math, time, religion etc. The concept of memory is what makes all the other concepts possible. Take away your memory and all you have is this moment.
That "faith in plastic" is at the end of a long chain of figuring things out and figuring out how to make things and communicate things. There is a whole history (if you believe in that sort of thing) where people traded food and other necessities in order to survive, figured out how to find and skin the best animals, safe and unsafe foods, and methods of food preparation, etc. etc. Many, you are tripping.
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Present awareness
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Present awareness »

Yes, you are right Chili.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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Atreyu
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Re: Could this be an incisive definition for consciousness?

Post by Atreyu »

Well, Present is definitely correct, at least in the sense that we move towards a more objective understanding of time when we attempt to cognize it the same way we do length, width, and height, i.e. when we consider the space-time paradigm.

However, I do disagree a bit with how you worded part of your post, Present.
Present awareness wrote:Everything in the universe, is here and now, separated only by space.
Everything in the Universe is simply here and now, period. Everything Here and Now implies no space. Space is our own perceptual/cognitive construct which enables us to subjectively perceive a "here and there", which is practical for survival purposes but which does not reflect the true reality of the Universe. If we literally perceived everything as being in the same place, we would have no reference points with which to interact with the specific items in our daily lives that we need to deal with, nor would we have any conception of a self, nor of our individual physical bodies. We simply can't function as human beings without an idea of a 'here and there', and an idea of a 'before, now, and after', even though in reality it's all Here and it's all happening Now.

But perhaps that is what you meant?
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