Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
Togo1
Posts: 541
Joined: September 23rd, 2015, 9:52 am

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Togo1 »

Gertie wrote:I've never gotten my head round Chalmer's P Zombie argument

Can anyone give an idiot's guide as to how imagining a different type of world where p zombies are possible, supports property dualism being true in this world? Or isn't that the claim?
The answer above is very good.

Or to put it very very simply, if you can conceive of something that has all the physical properties of a person with a mind, but doesn't have a mind, then having a mind must be something different to a set of physical properties.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Chili »

Chalmers seems to assume that his intuition that other people have minds is true without proof or even much argument. This causes confusion from the beginning. People start out following his train of thought with the false idea "now I KNOW that all other people have minds" ... and then get lost in different ways to ask "... but what if they DIDN'T ?"

-- Updated November 5th, 2017, 12:09 pm to add the following --

To clarify - if one *knows* that there are other minds, this knowledge is not empirical or scientific.
Togo1
Posts: 541
Joined: September 23rd, 2015, 9:52 am

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Togo1 »

Chili wrote:
Togo1 wrote:In each case I'm proposing that we go with the model that best fits the experimental facts, and has the greatest predictive power in experiments. That's how science works.
I believe when you describe "science" what you really mean is "common sense".
Yeah, but you say that about everyone who disagrees with you, including scientists. The idea that everyone who disagrees with you has made the same simple mistake that would be obvious if only they were to reconsider, is immensely comforting.
Chili wrote:DSM to the extent that it offers treatments is agnostic to whether there is actual consciousness occurring in the subjects,
Well of course it is. What it definitely does not do, however, even a little bit, if give credence to this fond idea you have that the medical treatment of mental disorders works on a purely physical model. This isn't a disagreement about philosophy, or definitions. It's just a claim about the real world that you made, that happens to be false.

I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I understand that you want medical treatment to be purely physical, you want psychological sciences to be purely physical. I'd quite like Neo-Freudian psychotherapy to be ineffective, because the underlying theory really annoys me. Unfortunately we both live in the real world, where the actual results don't aways match up in the way we want them to. You would very much like to live in a world where mental theories ineffective, where physical surgery is the best solution, and where the hard sciences gradually expand to take over the areas covered by the softer sciences, in a sort of inevitable march of reductionist progress, that will gradually fulfil all your a priori ideas about how the universe works. It would be immensely fulfilling and reassuring for you. Unfortunately for you, that's not the word we live in.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Chili »

The devil is in the details. The world used to be flat, and if you disagreed you were arrogant and wrong.

Science has made an effort to move all knowledge to more rigorous and empirical basis, but scientists, being only human, still get some of their intuitions confused with evidence.

DSM doesn't need to give credence to anything I was saying - which turn out to rigorous science to be the default positions. I was pointing out that DSM doesn't deny or remove that credence of those default empirical positions.

Surgical intervention is the only thing that will work in the worst cases. There is a family of cases where chemical intervention is sufficient. Beyond that, the very idea of a "problem" becomes some what vague. A person may be sad for years thinking a family member is dead, only to be cheered to discover that they were never dead in the first place. Is this a "treatment" ?
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Gertie »

Thanks Consul, appreciate the help, the video was especially helpful.



Here's my understanding, please correct me if I'm significantly wrong -

* We can't rule out the existence of PZs through reasoning. They're not logically incoherent.

* So if the universe had developed differently, it's possible PZs could exist.

* Just this possibility in itself, is incompatible with Physicalism/Identity Theory.

* Therefore Physicalism/Identity Theory can't be true in this world.

If I've gotten it right, it doesn't add up to me. Because I can just say that's not (or might not be) the way it works in this actual world with the way stuff works here. ( I'm assuming I'm not the first to point this out!).


And it seems to me that using the 'possible worlds' device here means you can get any answer you want, depending what possible world you imagine -


* There is a possible world where if you imagine a unicorn, it simultaneously comes into physical existence. The same with all thoughts about physical entities.

* This possible world isn't logically inconsistent.

* Therefore it's possible a mental thought is identical with a physical thing.

* Therefore dualism can't be true.


Isn't that just as valid an argument?
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Chili »

Gertie wrote: universe had developed differently, it's possible PZs could exist.
Is there an experimental basis on which to put a belief I may have that I am the only sentient one? How do I determine scientifically that some or all other people are *not* zombies?
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Gertie »

Togo1 wrote:
Gertie wrote:I've never gotten my head round Chalmer's P Zombie argument

Can anyone give an idiot's guide as to how imagining a different type of world where p zombies are possible, supports property dualism being true in this world? Or isn't that the claim?
The answer above is very good.

Or to put it very very simply, if you can conceive of something that has all the physical properties of a person with a mind, but doesn't have a mind, then having a mind must be something different to a set of physical properties.
Except just being able to conceive that, doesn't mean it's true - and if the theory it's arguing against is right, it's not true.
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Consul »

Chili wrote:How do I determine scientifically that some or all other people are *not* zombies?
I already answered this question!
Analogical inferences to other conscious minds are based on and justifiable in terms of scientific evidence coming from ethology (science of behavior), neurophysiology, and evolutionary biology.

"Similarity arguments for animal consciousness thus have roots in common sense observations. But they may also be bolstered by scientific investigations of behavior and the comparative study of brain anatomy and physiology, as well as considerations of evolutionary continuity between species. Neurological similarities between humans and other animals have been taken to suggest commonality of conscious experience; all mammals share the same basic brain anatomy, and much is shared with vertebrates more generally. Even structurally different brains may be neurodynamically similar in ways that enable inferences about animal consciousness to be drawn."

Animal Consciousness: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cons ... ss-animal/
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Gertie »

Chili wrote:
Gertie wrote: universe had developed differently, it's possible PZs could exist.
Is there an experimental basis on which to put a belief I may have that I am the only sentient one? How do I determine scientifically that some or all other people are *not* zombies?
I agree with you, it has to be a leap of faith. (As does believing anything beyond my own experience exists).

The inherently private nature of experiential states and the fact that we don't know the necessary and sufficient conditions for consciousness, means we're left to rely on things like self-reporting and similarity. Which actually works pretty well - which you might consider to be evidence it's true.
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Consul »

Chili wrote:Chalmers seems to assume that his intuition that other people have minds is true without proof or even much argument. This causes confusion from the beginning. People start out following his train of thought with the false idea "now I KNOW that all other people have minds" ... and then get lost in different ways to ask "... but what if they DIDN'T ?"
To clarify - if one *knows* that there are other minds, this knowledge is not empirical or scientific.
In an interview Chalmers said that he cannot know for certain that the interviewer is not a zombie; but it's one thing to concede the impossibility of certain knowledge with regard to other conscious minds and quite another to assert the improbability or implausibility of the existence of other conscious minds. My belief in other conscious minds doesn't have to remain "blind faith"; it can be—and arguably is—quite reasonable, and it can be—and arguably is—supported by empirical/scientific evidence.

"As against solipsism it is to be said, in the first place, that it is psychologically impossible to believe, and is rejected in fact even by those who mean to accept it. I once received a letter from an eminent logician, Mrs. Christine Ladd Franklin, saying that she was a solipsist, and was surprised that there were no others. Coming from a logician, this surprise surprised me. The fact that I cannot believe something does not prove that it is false, but it does prove that I am insincere and frivolous if I pretend to believe it. Cartesian doubt has value as a means of articulating our knowledge and showing what depends on what, but if carried too far it becomes a mere technical game in which philosophy loses seriousness. Whatever anybody, even I myself, may argue to the contrary, I shall continue to believe that I am not the whole universe, and in this every one will in fact agree with me, if I am right in my conviction that other people exist."

(Russell, Bertrand. Human Knowledge: Its Scope and Limits. 1948. Reprint, Abingdon: Routledge, 2009. p. 161)
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Wayne92587
Posts: 1780
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Wayne92587 »

The activity of a Singularity in Space Time, has no displacement, no angular momentum, no velocity of speed and direction, is motionless, the activity of a Singularity being meaningless, is stuck in pre-deterinmism; not being conscious.

Consciousness of Mind only exists for the Human, Mortal Being, an Animal with the head of a God.

Mortal Man before determinism, before becoming Conscious, before being given a Living Soul was not animated.

Man became animated upon the " Breath, the Immortal Spirit" of God, being breathed into Man's Nostrils.

Man being born, less than a mere Animal, without specification, bare-ass-naked.

Man became God like, boundless, when God's animating, the Immortal Spirit of God alive in the Flesh Body of Man, God becoming a Living Soul.

Mankind's Salvation requires that Man walk the Planet Earth having both a Spiritual Body and a Flesh Body.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Chili »

Consul wrote:"As against solipsism it is to be said, in the first place, that it is psychologically impossible to believe, and is rejected in fact even by those who mean to accept it. I once received a letter from an eminent logician, Mrs. Christine Ladd Franklin, saying that she was a solipsist, and was surprised that there were no others. Coming from a logician, this surprise surprised me. The fact that I cannot believe something does not prove that it is false, but it does prove that I am insincere and frivolous if I pretend to believe it. Cartesian doubt has value as a means of articulating our knowledge and showing what depends on what, but if carried too far it becomes a mere technical game in which philosophy loses seriousness. Whatever anybody, even I myself, may argue to the contrary, I shall continue to believe that I am not the whole universe, and in this every one will in fact agree with me, if I am right in my conviction that other people exist."
(Russell, Bertrand. Human Knowledge: Its Scope and Limits. 1948. Reprint, Abingdon: Routledge, 2009. p. 161)

I'm not quite sure what you're saying about "improbability or implausibility" . I'm seeing that you are judging your intuition to be "quite reasonable" but these are still circular turns back to the authority of intuition itself.

I think it's worthwhile to differentiate between physical-world skepticism and other-minds skepticism.

Particularly in antiquity before we have reductionist modeling, anything and everything can plausibly and reasonably be understood to be animated by minds and spirits.

Cartesian doubt regarding the outside world in general predates neuroscience
and its whole new world of reductionist other-minds doubt.
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Consul »

Chili wrote:I'm not quite sure what you're saying about "improbability or implausibility" . I'm seeing that you are judging your intuition to be "quite reasonable" but these are still circular turns back to the authority of intuition itself.

I think it's worthwhile to differentiate between physical-world skepticism and other-minds skepticism.

Particularly in antiquity before we have reductionist modeling, anything and everything can plausibly and reasonably be understood to be animated by minds and spirits.

Cartesian doubt regarding the outside world in general predates neuroscience and its whole new world of reductionist other-minds doubt.
Having a discussion with you would be more fun if you laid your cards on the table: Do you seriously believe in and defend (psychological) solipsism? Do you seriously believe in and defend reductive spiritualism (à la Berkeley)?
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Chili »

Consul wrote: Having a discussion with you would be more fun if you laid your cards on the table: Do you seriously believe in and defend (psychological) solipsism? Do you seriously believe in and defend reductive spiritualism (à la Berkeley)?
My beef is mostly with calling certain things "science".

I'm a new-age dualist basically.
Wayne92587
Posts: 1780
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Some Questions about P-Zombies Hypothesis

Post by Wayne92587 »

Consciousness is not an activity of a Man born of the dust of the ground, the Evolutionary Process.

It is man's nature to a least attempt to escape the Material World of Reality.

Born bare, less than mere animal, all material Realities, Creatures, must become more than a mere Animal in order to survive.
Man born of dust of the ground is bound to extinction.

In order for Man to survive, Man must become more than a mere Animal, boundless when it comes to the Laws of Nature, the Material World of Reality; Man must become the Ultimate Survivor, God Like.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021