RJG wrote: ↑December 21st, 2017, 10:47 am
RJG wrote:If CTD is true, then the conscious realization of a decision appears only 'after' the decision has already been unconsciously determined.
Togo1 wrote:What CTD is measuring is only 60-70% accurate, and takes place whether you act, or not. I don't see how that can possibly be a decision to act.
The measurements of CTD relate to the 'amount' of time delay (which currently is between 150 ms to 2+ seconds dependent on the individual and the circumstances), and NOT to the legitimacy (or de-legitimacy) of the 'after' relationship.
What you're measuring from still isn't a decision, which makes your claim that we decide first and are conscious of the decision second, to be very questionable.
And the delay is not 150ms - 2 seconds. It is 6 seconds to 11 seconds. The gap is huge.
RJG wrote:The consciousness-of-X is always 'after' X, ...but "by how much?" is the question and focus of the CTD measurements.
Not true. There's no reason, logical or otherwise, why you can't be conscious of something that's happening now. The only emperical evidence you've cited is the CTD studies which show a gap between conscious reporting and a particular neural trace. The only logical argument you've advanced is an assertion that you can't be conscious of an event until after it's occured, which isn't noticeably true, and presupposes that the conscious awareness and conscious decision making are separate events.
RJG wrote:How does one "consciously think about it"? Can one actually "think", ...or does one just merely experience thoughts?
Togo1 wrote:I appear to think, rather than just experience thoughts. There's a measurable difference in brain activity between passively observing an information flow, such as when listen to dialogue, and thinking or imagining the same dialogue. Similarly, thinking about a problem has different task performance characteristics to remembering the answer to a problem. They appear to be distinct processes in the brain.
We may rightfully presume that (unconscious) 'thinking' is actually occurring, but what is it specifically that we are actually 'conscious' of? ...isn't it JUST the 'thoughts'? If so, then does the phrase "consciously thinking", now appear to be self-contradicting; an oxymoron? (...I vote yes)[/quote]
I vote no. I'm conscious of myself making a decision. This is bourne out by studies of behaviour, and of brain patterns. If there is a logical contradiction, please state what it is. That something is self-contradictory is not an intuition you vote on, it's something you prove.
RJG wrote:Furthermore, we can't be conscious of our thoughts, if our thoughts had not ALREADY (in the past) happened; i.e. already been 'thunked'.
Why not? Why can't we be conscious of things in the present?