What is CTD?

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Chili
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Chili »

Togo1 wrote: December 21st, 2017, 6:05 am
If.

Indeed so. Once you decide that the results you're seeing are secretly determined in advance by some unrevealed mechanism,
This is how physicists (and usually the rest of us) deal with non-living phenomena - and we don't regard the mechanisms as "unrevealed".

The modeling of the formation of galaxies uses the known forces and particles of physics. Examination of your hand shows particles and forces interacting just as they would in a rock.
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Burning ghost
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Burning ghost »

You never answered my question.

WHO CARES????????????????????????????????

WHO CARES????????????????????????????????
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Togo1
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Togo1 »

RJG wrote: December 21st, 2017, 10:47 am
RJG wrote:If CTD is true, then the conscious realization of a decision appears only 'after' the decision has already been unconsciously determined.
Togo1 wrote:What CTD is measuring is only 60-70% accurate, and takes place whether you act, or not. I don't see how that can possibly be a decision to act.
The measurements of CTD relate to the 'amount' of time delay (which currently is between 150 ms to 2+ seconds dependent on the individual and the circumstances), and NOT to the legitimacy (or de-legitimacy) of the 'after' relationship.
What you're measuring from still isn't a decision, which makes your claim that we decide first and are conscious of the decision second, to be very questionable.

And the delay is not 150ms - 2 seconds. It is 6 seconds to 11 seconds. The gap is huge.
RJG wrote:The consciousness-of-X is always 'after' X, ...but "by how much?" is the question and focus of the CTD measurements.
Not true. There's no reason, logical or otherwise, why you can't be conscious of something that's happening now. The only emperical evidence you've cited is the CTD studies which show a gap between conscious reporting and a particular neural trace. The only logical argument you've advanced is an assertion that you can't be conscious of an event until after it's occured, which isn't noticeably true, and presupposes that the conscious awareness and conscious decision making are separate events.

RJG wrote:How does one "consciously think about it"? Can one actually "think", ...or does one just merely experience thoughts?
Togo1 wrote:I appear to think, rather than just experience thoughts. There's a measurable difference in brain activity between passively observing an information flow, such as when listen to dialogue, and thinking or imagining the same dialogue. Similarly, thinking about a problem has different task performance characteristics to remembering the answer to a problem. They appear to be distinct processes in the brain.
We may rightfully presume that (unconscious) 'thinking' is actually occurring, but what is it specifically that we are actually 'conscious' of? ...isn't it JUST the 'thoughts'? If so, then does the phrase "consciously thinking", now appear to be self-contradicting; an oxymoron? (...I vote yes)[/quote]
I vote no. I'm conscious of myself making a decision. This is bourne out by studies of behaviour, and of brain patterns. If there is a logical contradiction, please state what it is. That something is self-contradictory is not an intuition you vote on, it's something you prove.
RJG wrote:Furthermore, we can't be conscious of our thoughts, if our thoughts had not ALREADY (in the past) happened; i.e. already been 'thunked'.
Why not? Why can't we be conscious of things in the present?
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:The measurements of CTD relate to the 'amount' of time delay (which currently is between 150 ms to 2+ seconds dependent on the individual and the circumstances), and NOT to the legitimacy (or de-legitimacy) of the 'after' relationship.
Togo1 wrote:What you're measuring from still isn't a decision, which makes your claim that we decide first and are conscious of the decision second, to be very questionable.
Anything (and everything!) that we are conscious of (including every micro step/event in the decision making process) are of 'past' events.

RJG wrote:The consciousness-of-X is always 'after' X, ...but "by how much?" is the question and focus of the CTD measurements.
Togo1 wrote:Not true. There's no reason, logical or otherwise, why you can't be conscious of something that's happening now.
1. The 'now' that we are conscious of, and the 'now' of reality, are two different 'nows', ...one lags the other.
2. Logically, we can't be conscious-of-something, without there first being 'something' to be conscious of.
3. Logically (and scientifically), "instantaneous" sensing/detecting is impossible.

RJG wrote:Furthermore, we can't be conscious of our thoughts, if our thoughts had not ALREADY (in the past) happened; i.e. already been 'thunked'.
Togo1 wrote:Why not? Why can't we be conscious of things in the present?
Because everything that we are 'presently' conscious of, is from the 'past'. We can't be conscious of things happening 'presently' until [CTD] seconds from now.

Without (some pre-existing) 'something' to be conscious of, then what exactly are we conscious of? ….nothing!
Without 'something' to experience, then what is there to experience? ...nothing!
Without 'something' to see, then what is there to see? ...nothing!

Without (a pre-existing) X, there can be no 'consciousness-of-X'.
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LuckyR
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by LuckyR »

RJG wrote: December 22nd, 2017, 1:54 pm
RJG wrote:The measurements of CTD relate to the 'amount' of time delay (which currently is between 150 ms to 2+ seconds dependent on the individual and the circumstances), and NOT to the legitimacy (or de-legitimacy) of the 'after' relationship.
Togo1 wrote:What you're measuring from still isn't a decision, which makes your claim that we decide first and are conscious of the decision second, to be very questionable.
Anything (and everything!) that we are conscious of (including every micro step/event in the decision making process) are of 'past' events.

RJG wrote:The consciousness-of-X is always 'after' X, ...but "by how much?" is the question and focus of the CTD measurements.
Togo1 wrote:Not true. There's no reason, logical or otherwise, why you can't be conscious of something that's happening now.
1. The 'now' that we are conscious of, and the 'now' of reality, are two different 'nows', ...one lags the other.
2. Logically, we can't be conscious-of-something, without there first being 'something' to be conscious of.
3. Logically (and scientifically), "instantaneous" sensing/detecting is impossible.

RJG wrote:Furthermore, we can't be conscious of our thoughts, if our thoughts had not ALREADY (in the past) happened; i.e. already been 'thunked'.
Togo1 wrote:Why not? Why can't we be conscious of things in the present?
Because everything that we are 'presently' conscious of, is from the 'past'. We can't be conscious of things happening 'presently' until [CTD] seconds from now.

Without (some pre-existing) 'something' to be conscious of, then what exactly are we conscious of? ….nothing!
Without 'something' to experience, then what is there to experience? ...nothing!
Without 'something' to see, then what is there to see? ...nothing!

Without (a pre-existing) X, there can be no 'consciousness-of-X'.
Exactly. There are two nows. One for a third person observer with impossibly fast detection and computational speeds (BTW no one is qualified to be this observer) and the now of the individual (everyone on planet earth).

Which perspective carries more weight?
"As usual... it depends."
Togo1
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Togo1 »

RJG wrote:The consciousness-of-X is always 'after' X, ...but "by how much?" is the question and focus of the CTD measurements.
Togo1 wrote:Not true. There's no reason, logical or otherwise, why you can't be conscious of something that's happening now.
1. The 'now' that we are conscious of, and the 'now' of reality, are two different 'nows', ...one lags the other.
2. Logically, we can't be conscious-of-something, without there first being 'something' to be conscious of.
Why ever not? Again, you're assuption is stemming from the idea that these are two separate events, but there is no reason, logically or otherwise, why that has to be the case.

If a conscious process is the same process as the decision process, then they can only occur at the same time. Agreed?
RJG wrote:Furthermore, we can't be conscious of our thoughts, if our thoughts had not ALREADY (in the past) happened; i.e. already been 'thunked'.
Togo1 wrote:Why not? Why can't we be conscious of things in the present?
Because everything that we are 'presently' conscious of, is from the 'past'...
That's not a reason, that's just a restatement of what you believe to be true. Give me a reason why we can't conscious of present events.
RJG wrote:Without (some pre-existing) 'something' to be conscious of, then what exactly are we conscious of?
The present.
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:Logically, we can't be conscious-of-something, without there first being 'something' to be conscious of.
Togo1 wrote:Why ever not?
Can you? Can you actually be conscious of 'something' if you are conscious of 'no-thing'?

Togo1 wrote:Again, you're assumption is stemming from the idea that these are two separate events…
Yes, 'X' and the 'consciousness-of-X' are two separate events, separated in time by the value of CTD. The 'consciousness-of-X' is dependent upon the pre-existence of 'X'. One cannot kiss his wife, if he has no wife to kiss!

Togo1 wrote:If a conscious process is the same process as the decision process…
No, they are not the "same". The 'consciousness'-of-something is not the same as the 'something' itself. The consciousness of a decision process is not the same as the decision process itself.
Togo1 wrote:...then they can only occur at the same time. Agreed?
No, they do not occur at the "same" time. One lags the other (...by the CTD value). "Instantaneous" consciousness of any event is impossible.

RJG wrote:Because everything that we are 'presently' conscious of, is from the 'past'...
Togo1 wrote:That's not a reason, that's just a restatement of what you believe to be true. Give me a reason why we can't conscious of present events.
Because, by the time we are conscious of what was the present, it has now become the past!

Conscious processes are not "instantaneous"; they consume time. (Refer to the OP for more clarification on the causes of this time delay).
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Burning ghost
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Burning ghost »

RJG -

Are you trying to make it to 100 pages by saying the same thing over and over and over again? ;D
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Burning ghost
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Burning ghost »

Togo -

I think RJG is saying that two things cannot happen at the same time! haha!! Basically he is saying experience is impossible! I dunno about you, but I'm not buying, and there is literally no evidence that can do anything to change that :D
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