What is CTD?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:Although we are conscious of (recognize) the sensory input, there is no consciousness of the actual brain activity (neural activity) that cause things to happen outside the brain, such as moving a leg.
Steve3007 wrote:Well, I've talked about feedback loops. Couldn't there be relatively short feedback loops within the brain? I guess the longest feedback loop is one which involves sensing things outside our brain and body.
In these feedback loops, what is it (specifically) that you are actually conscious of? …isn’t it just the sensory impressions (experiences) of something that has already happened?
RJG wrote:We don’t know (are not conscious) that we moved our leg until after the ‘proprioception’ sensory input is received and recognized.
Steve3007 wrote:But if we fired a motor neuron…
And if we (our bodies) did fire a motor neuron… then we wouldn’t “know” (be conscious of) it until after we experienced a sensory indication of such. Otherwise, we have no way of “knowing” this.

The firing neuron occurs before the ‘knowing’-of-the-firing-neuron. X occurs before the ‘knowing’-of-X.
Steve3007 wrote:But if we fired a motor neuron, we know that we attempted to move our leg, don’t we?
No. Firstly, it is not possible to consciously fire a motor neuron. Secondly, we can’t “know” we attempted leg movement prior to the sensation of attempting leg movement; prior to the proprioception sensory experience of muscle movement. Otherwise, there is nothing there to tell us anything. There is nothing there yet, to know.
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Burning ghost
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Burning ghost »

We can also look to examples of spinal injuries where people have to learn how to walk again. Even in those cases there are still inbuilt patterns that allow a body (disconnected from the brain) to "walk". What the patient has to do is wire themselves back into the system. As a matter of survival and evolution some physiological responses happen without conscious input, and they may well even resist conscious interference (like with breathing, or flinching away from some incoming projectile).
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JamesOfSeattle
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

At this point I'm inclined to say we are just playing Wittgensteinian word games.

But I should point out that RJG is not alone on his(?) side of the table. I don't know if Peter Carruthers was mentioned in this thread, but I just read this interview in which he espouses the same idea, namely that there is no such thing as a conscious decision.

For myself, I would define a conscious decision as a decision made (subconsciously) which you are conscious of before you take any action in furtherance of that decision. In other words, a decision which has been evaluated before being acted on.

*
Togo1
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Togo1 »

Oh RJG is hardly the only one to argue that people aren't really conscious. It's just a much less popular position that it was, largely because the scientific backing for it has largely evaporated or been overturned.

Peter Carruthers is saying that we interpret our own behaviour in the same way that we interpret the behaviour of others, which is fairly incontrovertial. He also says that we only do this, and have no access to the content of our own thoughts, and even that we don't have conscious thoughts or conscious experiences, which is far more controvertial.

However, I'm not seeing any trace of RJG's position that this is a matter of simple logic, that it can be logically demonstrated or logically proven to be the case. Instead he appears to be relying on inference from emperical findings.
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

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JamesOfSeattle wrote:But I should point out that RJG is not alone on his(?) side of the table. I don't know if Peter Carruthers was mentioned in this thread, but I just read this interview in which he espouses the same idea, namely that there is no such thing as a conscious decision.
My reasoning is different than Carruthers. Because of CTD, "consciously doing" anything is impossible, including “consciously deciding”.
Togo1 wrote:Oh RJG is hardly the only one to argue that people aren't really conscious.
To clarify, I did not say, nor claim, that “people aren’t really conscious”. This topic of CTD, is about that which happens in conscious-time (in the conscious mind of the observer) and that which happens in real-time (in reality). Consciousness (i.e. all conscious experiences) lag reality. This is CTD.

Because of CTD our actual 'future' has already played out, while we wait for our lagging consciousness to inform us. Our ‘present’ consciousness only allows us a view to the ‘past’.
RJG wrote:We are, in effect, being ‘fed’ our conscious experiences. That which happens, ‘necessarily’ happens. This conclusion is a bit ‘chilling’, as it destroys any viability of conscious control (aka “free-will”, mental causation, conscious causation) or any form or notion of “consciously doing” anything.

So, contrary to popular belief, we don’t actually “consciously do” anything, ...we are only “conscious” of what we’ve “done”!
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Burning ghost
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Burning ghost »

The pain is not felt before the punch, but it can be anticipated.

Who cares?

I don't taste the cake before it is in my mouth, but it can be anticipated.

Who cares?

What is of interest to you, possibly, is that some things we have to be anticipated and others we don't. What we don't anticipate shocks us, what we do prepares us.

Any problem can be reduced to a point where it becomes unintelligible. It is not "contrary to popular belief", what you are saying is opposed to anything as being intelligible. You appeal to ignorance and dressed it up as conclusive knowledge.
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Chili
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Chili »

Why use science to debunk the efficacy of consciousness without going all the way and debunking consciousness itself?

How and where and why is the fairy-tale of conscious doership generated? If it is not a result of consciousness, then when one sees someone doing it, one can't conclude that they are even conscious or ever decided to report anything on purpose. The fairy tale of passive consciousness or else of conscious doership in that person is in *your* mind. So why not work to convince yourself it is just a fairy tale and address all these posts to *yourself* ?
Togo1
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Togo1 »

RJG wrote: December 20th, 2017, 12:16 am My reasoning is different than Carruthers. Because of CTD, "consciously doing" anything is impossible, including “consciously deciding”.
Indeed so. Similar conclusion but a different argument.
RJG wrote:Because of CTD our actual 'future' has already played out, while we wait for our lagging consciousness to inform us. Our ‘present’ consciousness only allows us a view to the ‘past’.
The same is true of unconscious decision making. Or even reflex arcs. A reflex arc, such as jerking your hand away from a hot plate, can only act on information received in the past. Simiarly, any computer system, cameras, and light switches, all work on information gathered in the past.
RJG wrote:We are, in effect, being ‘fed’ our conscious experiences. That which happens, ‘necessarily’ happens. This conclusion is a bit ‘chilling’, as it destroys any viability of conscious control (aka “free-will”, mental causation, conscious causation) or any form or notion of “consciously doing” anything.
No, it doesn't. You receive information, you process the information, you consciously think about it, then you declare you've made a decision. Identifying a delay (CTD) between thinking about something and reaching a conclusion, does not pose a problem for conscious decision making, it simply reflect that a decision is the end point of a thought process.
Chili
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Chili »

Togo1 wrote: December 20th, 2017, 12:46 pm
RJG wrote:We are, in effect, being ‘fed’ our conscious experiences. That which happens, ‘necessarily’ happens. This conclusion is a bit ‘chilling’, as it destroys any viability of conscious control (aka “free-will”, mental causation, conscious causation) or any form or notion of “consciously doing” anything.
No, it doesn't. You receive information, you process the information, you consciously think about it, then you declare you've made a decision. Identifying a delay (CTD) between thinking about something and reaching a conclusion, does not pose a problem for conscious decision making, it simply reflect that a decision is the end point of a thought process.
If we are comfortable with reductive physicalism, each part of this takes place automatically, and doesn't happen to anybody. Information goes in, processes in the only way it can because of the dominoes (and other Rube Goldberg pieces) which are just sitting around waiting for light and sound to hit them and knock them over, at some point in automatic processing comes the behavior which is the declaration of a decision.

World’s largest Rube Goldberg machine lights up Christmas tree
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOqfLVCDv8
Togo1
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Togo1 »

Chili wrote: December 20th, 2017, 1:16 pm
Togo1 wrote: December 20th, 2017, 12:46 pm No, it doesn't. You receive information, you process the information, you consciously think about it, then you declare you've made a decision. Identifying a delay (CTD) between thinking about something and reaching a conclusion, does not pose a problem for conscious decision making, it simply reflect that a decision is the end point of a thought process.
If we are comfortable with reductive physicalism, each part of this takes place automatically, and doesn't happen to anybody.
If.

Indeed so. Once you decide that the results you're seeing are secretly determined in advance by some unrevealed mechanism, and produce false signals to fool people into thinking they're making conscious decisions, you can stick in pretty much any explanation you want. So if you're happy with reductive physicalism, with everything dictated by enviromental conditions, then it slots in nicely. Similarly, if you're comfortable with conspiracy theories, then each part of this process takes place as dictated by the CIA, and that fits equally well.

Once you decide some of your evidence is faked, then literally any explanation will work.

However, if you prefer to deal with the results of what we actually see happening, in behaviour and in the brain, then you have a few things to contend with. If what is measured in the CTD is a decision to act, then how can subjects subsequently do something different? Why does the same neural trace appear when subjects don't act? More generally, if consciousness and its associated neural circuitry is ineffective, or fake, or only take place after behaviour, then why does it have a measureable impact on task performance?

It looks like consciousness, or something that operates very much like it, is at work here, and that our subjective experience of decision making maps pretty well onto parts of the actual decisions made. Of course, as long as you're happy that some of that evidence is faked, then you can jam these observations into reductive physcialism, or mind control lasers, or Thomas Acquinas' Angel Theory, or whatever else takes your fancy. They just aren't a terribly good fit for the evidence we have.
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

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Burning ghost wrote:The pain is not felt before the punch, but it can be anticipated.

I don't taste the cake before it is in my mouth, but it can be anticipated.
How? How does one "anticipate"? ...can one actually "anticipate"? ...or does one just merely experience (the feeling of) anticipation?

Chili wrote:How and where and why is the fairy-tale of conscious doership generated?
The fairy-tale of "conscious doership" (...btw, I like this wordage) is generated/perpetuated via cultural indoctrination.
Chili wrote:The fairy tale of passive consciousness or else of conscious doership in that person is in *your* mind.
Yes, my conscious experiences are only mine. And the fairy-tale is only limited to "conscious doership", not to "passive consciousness".
Chili wrote:So why not work to convince yourself it is just a fairy tale and address all these posts to *yourself* ?
I'm already convinced that "conscious doership" is a fairy-tale. And because of this inability, I/we have no (conscious) say-so with anything we do (including to whom we address our posts to). We don't know what we (our bodies) do until 'after' we do it.

Togo1 wrote:You receive information, you process the information, you consciously think about it, then you declare you've made a decision.
If CTD is true, then the conscious realization of a decision appears only 'after' the decision has already been unconsciously determined.

Also, how does one "consciously think about it"? Can one actually "think"? ...or does one just merely experience thoughts?
Last edited by RJG on December 21st, 2017, 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Togo1
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Togo1 »

RJG wrote: December 21st, 2017, 7:54 am
Togo1 wrote:You receive information, you process the information, you consciously think about it, then you declare you've made a decision.
If CTD is true, then the conscious realization of a decision appears only 'after' the decision has already been unconsciously determined.
What CTD is measuring is only 60-70% accurate, and takes place whether you act, or not. I don't see how that can possibly be a decision to act.
RJG wrote: December 21st, 2017, 7:54 amBtw, how does one "consciously think about it"? Can one actually "think", ...or does one just merely experience thoughts?
I appear to think, rather than just experience thoughts. There's a measureable difference in brain acitivity between passively observing an information flow, such as when listen to dialogue, and thinking or imagining the same dialogue. Similarly, thinking about a problem has different task performance characteristics to remembering the answer to a problem. They appear to be distinct processes in the brain.
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

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RJG wrote:If CTD is true, then the conscious realization of a decision appears only 'after' the decision has already been unconsciously determined.
Togo1 wrote:What CTD is measuring is only 60-70% accurate, and takes place whether you act, or not. I don't see how that can possibly be a decision to act.
The measurements of CTD relate to the 'amount' of time delay (which currently is between 150 ms to 2+ seconds dependent on the individual and the circumstances), and NOT to the legitimacy (or de-legitimacy) of the 'after' relationship.

The consciousness-of-X is always 'after' X, ...but "by how much?" is the question and focus of the CTD measurements.

RJG wrote:How does one "consciously think about it"? Can one actually "think", ...or does one just merely experience thoughts?
Togo1 wrote:I appear to think, rather than just experience thoughts. There's a measurable difference in brain activity between passively observing an information flow, such as when listen to dialogue, and thinking or imagining the same dialogue. Similarly, thinking about a problem has different task performance characteristics to remembering the answer to a problem. They appear to be distinct processes in the brain.
We may rightfully presume that (unconscious) 'thinking' is actually occurring, but what is it specifically that we are actually 'conscious' of? ...isn't it JUST the 'thoughts'? If so, then does the phrase "consciously thinking", now appear to be self-contradicting; an oxymoron? (...I vote yes)

Furthermore, we can't be conscious of our thoughts, if our thoughts had not ALREADY (in the past) happened; i.e. already been 'thunked'. (We can't have thoughts of 'nothing', but only thoughts of 'something'). We have no conscious say-so over the 'thinking' (the creating of this 'something') as we are only privy to, and conscious of, the resulting 'thoughts' (the 'somethings' themselves).

Consciously thinking one's own thoughts, is a just a fairy-tale, that we all have been brainwashed into believing.
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Burning ghost
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Re: What is CTD?

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RJG -

It is easy for me to anticipate what you'll write. I type something and post it and anticipate that you'll merely add a "?" to my post and throw it back at me like a chimp throws feces.

How can you ask "how?" According to your, as you laughingly talk it, "logic" you cannot even ask me "how?"

Is your next question going to be "How can I ask you, how you're ask me, how I'm asking you, how?" Or are you going to drop this nonsensical charade? I anticipate you'll do no such thing.
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:How? How does one "anticipate"? ...can one actually "anticipate"? ...or does one just merely experience (the feeling of) anticipation?
Burning ghost wrote:It is easy for me to anticipate what you'll write. I type something and post it and anticipate that you'll merely add a "?" to my post and throw it back at me like a chimp throws feces.

How can you ask "how?" According to your, as you laughingly talk it, "logic" you cannot even ask me "how?"

Is your next question going to be "How can I ask you, how you're ask me, how I'm asking you, how?" Or are you going to drop this nonsensical charade? I anticipate you'll do no such thing.
Nice "avoiding-answering-the-question" technique.

There was nothing non-sensical about the question, either you "can anticipate" (and "paint-yourself-in-a-corner" explaining how), or you can just simply admit that you only just "experience this anticipation". Which is it?
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