What is CTD?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by RJG »

Steve3007 wrote:So I issued the conscious command to catch the ball at step 3.
Again, you forgot the missing CTD component in your timeline (of the "I issued" action). Was this ("issuing") the conscious component or the reactive unconscious component happening in reality? -- remember: one can't be conscious of 'something' if there is 'nothing' [no (pre-existing) 'something'] to be conscious of. Both components of CTD exist, not just one.

RJG wrote:If CTD exists, then a 'time lag' exists, and if a time lag exists, then ‘everything’ one is conscious of, has ALREADY HAPPENED. If it has already happened, then it has already been caused. If it has already been caused, then it is too late to ‘cause’ it.
Chili wrote:RJG can you run through how these issues apply in this scenario?

* a person wakes up, gets out of bed, and writes a diary entry about what it's like to be alive, muses about consciousness, etc.

In other words, what - if anything - is evidenced by an individual's reports of consciousness? Is the fact of consciousness somehow affecting what is written? Is the fact of consciousness itself somehow causing or influencing the content of the report?
No, not possible. Consciousness is always 'after-the-fact'. The events in reality are always a step ahead of one's conscious realization of these events. In other words, the writing in the diary 'preceded' the consciousness of writing in the diary.

Imagine reading words in a book. Your consciousness of each and every word always "lags" the reality of the very next sequential word. If you wish to be the writer (causer) of the next word to read (experience), then you have to beat reality to that next word. But, even when you try to read faster, you can't ever seem to catch up to that next word. It is always ahead of you; all attempts are futile. One can never 'write' the next word to read. (...nor 'cause' the next event to experience.)

Since consciousness (of-reality) always "lags" reality, it is impossible for consciousness to influence, or to have any causal effect, on the events occurring in reality.


**************

Conscious causation - aka "free-will", conscious-control, mental causation - are all just feel-good fairy tales, that are not logically possible.
Last edited by RJG on November 16th, 2017, 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chili
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Chili »

RJG wrote: Conscious causation - aka "free-will", conscious-control, mental causation - are all just feel-good fairy tales, that are not logically possible.
Feel-good fairy tales - like other minds? If the whole show runs itself, then one has experiences of others, but these others are then simply machines. How is that any less of a fairy tale than mental causation?
Steve3007
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Steve3007 »

RJG:
Again, you forgot the missing CTD component in your timeline (of the "I issued" action). Was this ("issuing") the conscious component or the reactive unconscious component happening in reality? -- remember: one can't be conscious of 'something' if there is 'nothing' [no (pre-existing) 'something'] to be conscious of. Both components of CTD exist, not just one.
I read this 3 times, and have no idea what it means.

Me:
3.
Events in the world: Ball is 1 metre from my hand.
Events in my brain: I perceive the ball 2 metres from my hand. I issue a command to my hand telling it to catch the ball. It sets off down my nervous system towards my hand.
Delay
The things labelled "events in my brain" happened in my brain. Some sensory nerve impulses entered my brain and some motor nerve impulses exited my brain. No doubt this took a little time. This makes no difference. A command was still issued.
Chili
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Chili »

Chili wrote:
RJG wrote: Conscious causation - aka "free-will", conscious-control, mental causation - are all just feel-good fairy tales, that are not logically possible.
Feel-good fairy tales - like other minds? If the whole show runs itself, then one has experiences of others, but these others are then simply machines. How is that any less of a fairy tale than mental causation?
who believes it - and why? can they help believing it?
Steve3007
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Steve3007 »

RJG:
Again, you forgot the missing CTD component in your timeline (of the "I issued" action). Was this ("issuing") the conscious component or the reactive unconscious component happening in reality? -- remember: one can't be conscious of 'something' if there is 'nothing' [no (pre-existing) 'something'] to be conscious of. Both components of CTD exist, not just one.
I'll have another go, by breaking it down:
Again, you forgot the missing CTD component in your timeline (of the "I issued" action).
OK, how about this:

3.
Events in the world: Ball is 1 metre from my hand.
Events in my brain: Delay. I perceive the ball 2 metres from my hand. Delay. I issue a command to my hand telling it to catch the ball. Delay. It sets off down my nervous system towards my hand. Delay.

Add as many delays as you like.
Was this ("issuing") the conscious component or the reactive unconscious component happening in reality?
It was a thing that happened in my brain to fire some motor neurons. If my brain is part of reality, then it happened in reality.
remember: one can't be conscious of 'something' if there is 'nothing' [no (pre-existing) 'something'] to be conscious of.
I agree that one can't be conscious of something if there is nothing to be conscious of. I am conscious of the signals entering my brain from sensory neurons.
Both components of CTD exist, not just one.
As I said, insert as many delays as you like.
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by RJG »

Steve3007 wrote:
RJG wrote:Again, you forgot the missing CTD component in your timeline (of the "I issued" action). Was this ("issuing") the conscious component or the reactive unconscious component happening in reality?
OK, how about this:

3.
Events in the world: Ball is 1 metre from my hand.
Events in my brain: Delay. I perceive the ball 2 metres from my hand. Delay. I issue a command to my hand telling it to catch the ball. Delay. It sets off down my nervous system towards my hand. Delay.

Add as many delays as you like.
Steve, these “delays” that you have added are NOT CTD delays. These are just delays between sequential events. CTD is the ‘specific’ conscious time delay between an event happening in reality and the ‘conscious’ realization of that event. There are TWO components to CTD; a ‘something’ and the ‘consciousness’ (of this something). If one claims to be conscious of 'something', then there is a 'something' to be conscious of.

In your timeline, and in general, you have done a good job accounting for both components of CTD. For example (below) in step 1 - the “ball is 3 meters” away, and in step 2 is the conscious realization of it; “I perceive the ball 3 meters…” away. You have accounted for everything except that which is highlighted below in red. These are missing its corresponding CTD component [? which should happen in step 2 ?].
Steve3007 wrote: 1.
Events in the world: Ball is 3 metres from my hand.
Events in my brain: Nothing relevant. I haven't seen the ball moving yet.
Delay

2.
Events in the world: Ball is 2 metres from my hand. [? missing CTD component from step 3 ?]
Events in my brain: I perceive the ball 3 metres from my hand.
Delay

3.
Events in the world: Ball is 1 metre from my hand.
Events in my brain: I perceive the ball 2 metres from my hand. I issue a command to my hand telling it to catch the ball. It sets off down my nervous system towards my hand.
Delay

4.
Events in the world: The command reaches my hand as the ball reaches my hand. My hand closes around it.
Events in my brain: I perceive the ball 1 metre from my hand.
Delay

5.
Events in the world: My hand is holding the ball.
Events in my brain: I perceive my hand catching the ball.

6.
Events in the world: My hand is holding the ball.
Events in my brain: I perceive my hand holding the ball.
If you look at your time line, everything (both components of CTD) are accounted for except that which is highlighted in red. Please provide the missing CTD component; either the ‘something’ or the ‘conscious realization’ (of that something). CTD consists of TWO events; that which happens in ‘reality’ and that which happens in the ‘conscious’ mind of the observer. These are TWO events, you only show ‘one’ of them.

RJG wrote:Conscious causation - aka "free-will", conscious-control, mental causation - are all just feel-good fairy tales, that are not logically possible.
Chili wrote:Feel-good fairy tales - like other minds? If the whole show runs itself, then one has experiences of others, but these others are then simply machines.
Yes, but I suspect we ALL are “machines”.

Chili wrote:How is that any less of a fairy tale than mental causation?
Us being “machines” --- is logically possible
"Conscious causation" --- is not logically possible (...and therefore just a “fairy tale”)

Chili wrote:Who believes it - and why? can they help believing it?
Ultimately we believe what we “want” to believe.

If our desire for feel-goodness is greater than our desire to accept an "ugly" logical truth, then we will believe in those feel-good fairy tales. In any case, we have no choice in the matter. Our “wants” (desires) dictate our actions, and our beliefs!
Last edited by RJG on November 17th, 2017, 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chili
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Chili »

RJG wrote:Ultimately we believe what we “want” to believe.
"In the final analysis, there IS NO final analysis"

So the personal "want" to believe something is just another shape in the neurons, another physical unperceived and unperceiving part of the physical universe, like gravity, which "wants" to pull us downward.
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by RJG »

Chili wrote:"In the final analysis, there IS NO final analysis"
Not so. It ‘is’ final, …ain’t ‘nothing’ we can do about it.

Chili wrote:So the personal "want" to believe something is just another shape in the neurons, another physical unperceived and unperceiving part of the physical universe, like gravity, which "wants" to pull us downward.
Yep, …just another innate force pushing us around.
Chili
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Chili »

RJG wrote:
Chili wrote:"In the final analysis, there IS NO final analysis"
Not so. It ‘is’ final, …ain’t ‘nothing’ we can do about it.

Chili wrote:So the personal "want" to believe something is just another shape in the neurons, another physical unperceived and unperceiving part of the physical universe, like gravity, which "wants" to pull us downward.
Yep, …just another innate force pushing us around.
The "us" part is just "your" fairy tale, right? Nothing you can do about it, I guess.
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by RJG »

Chili wrote:The "us" part is just "your" fairy tale, right?
Not so.

“Us” (and other beings) ARE logically possible, and therefore 'not' a “fairy tale”.
Conscious causation is NOT logically possible, and therefore 'is' a “fairy tale”.
Chili
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Chili »

RJG wrote:
Chili wrote:The "us" part is just "your" fairy tale, right?
Not so.

“Us” (and other beings) ARE logically possible, and therefore 'not' a “fairy tale”.
Conscious causation is NOT logically possible, and therefore 'is' a “fairy tale”.
So other minds are logically possible - in people, robots, trees. Right?

-- Updated November 16th, 2017, 8:15 pm to add the following --
Chili wrote:
RJG wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

Not so.

“Us” (and other beings) ARE logically possible, and therefore 'not' a “fairy tale”.
Conscious causation is NOT logically possible, and therefore 'is' a “fairy tale”.
So other minds are logically possible - in people, robots, trees. Right?
You are using some very arbitrary requirements to determine what is "logically possible".

I suppose if it is "logically possible" that you are a brain in a vat, then that is also not a fairy tale.
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by RJG »

Chili wrote:You are using some very arbitrary requirements to determine what is "logically possible".
Not so. There is nothing “arbitrary” about logic.
Chili wrote:I suppose if it is "logically possible" that you are a brain in a vat, then that is also not a fairy tale.
Correct.
Chili wrote:So other minds are logically possible - in people, robots, trees. Right?
Not so. -- Minds?? There are no such things as real (dualistic) "minds". Minds are not logically possible in anyone or anything. They too are just a story (dare I say "fairy tale") that we grew up being told, and subsequently believing.

Tell me honestly, other than you ‘being told so’ (indoctrinated), how do you really know that you have a mind? What are the indicators? If you care to read, here is something that I wrote in the past on this subject:
RJG wrote:How does one even really know that they have a ‘mind’? I suspect we all have been told that we have one. But, for me, being told is not reason enough to automatically accept as a truth. Other than being told, is there another way to know that we possess a ‘mind’?

Many of us automatically; without direct confirmation, accept as truth, that which is told to us by “trusted sources” (i.e. parents, professors, preachers, etc.). For example, most of us accept as truth, that the earth is spherically shaped, as opposed to being flat. In fact, many of us will mock those people who claim that the earth is flat. But unless we are an astronaut and had the fortune to observe and confirm this spherically shaped earth ourselves directly, then we don’t really know, as we are relying on the “hearsay” of trusted sources to tell us our truths.

One can justify (their acceptance of truth) that the earth is spherical, because of one’s belief that confirmation exists, though indirectly, via the words from the astronaut or pictures from his camera. The certainty of this truth is less certain than via direct confirmation. But what about those things that are seemingly impossible to confirm, such as ‘minds’? Is it possible to directly or indirectly, confirm such a thing?

Who else really knows that I have a ‘mind’, if not me directly? I am the only one that can possibly confirm such a thing. There is no astronaut or any other to confirm this; there is no one able to peer into me to detect and photograph this thing called mind.

If I'm told, by a trusted source, that I possess a marble in my hand should I accept this as truth even if I can't see or feel it? If I actually do possess a marble in my hand, then shouldn't I know this without being told?

Many of us seem to unquestionably accept as true, those things, as told from those whom we trust. But what if those that we unquestionably trust, accept from those that they unquestionably trust? How long is this chain of unquestionable and automatic trust and acceptance? And what if the first person in the chain has erred? Being told, from a trustworthy source, that something (i.e. a "mind") exists just doesn't cut it for me. There has to be something more!

If I actually do possess a mind then shouldn't I know this without being told so? Or is it that, one only knows they have a mind because they have been told so? Is it possible to know that one has a mind without ever being told so? If I lived on a deserted island isolated from all other people (or trusted sources) could I know I possess this thing that others called "mind"?

Others may claim that I have a mind, and I suppose that I could just go along and simply and blindly accept this as truth, but does this really mean that it is? But really, how can they know I have a mind? I am the only one that can possibly know. Certainly, to make such a claim of having a mind means that there 'must' be some indication (other than an outside person telling me so). So what is it, how do I know I have a mind, what is this indicator that tells me, with unquestionable certainty, that I, in fact, possess this thing called a "mind"?
Namelesss
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Namelesss »

RJG wrote:What is CTD?

The logic goes like this:

P1. “Instantaneous” detection/sensing is not logically (nor scientifically) possible. This includes human conscious experiences (sensing/detecting). A ‘time delay’ is an unavoidable fact.
There are no 'facts' in science or philosophy. 'Facts' are no more than 'beliefs', and as soon as someone predicates a statement with a declaration of 'fact-hood', that is a huge 'tell'.
Segundo, you are confused.
All that is ever experienced/Known is experienced/Known exactly Here! Now!
This particular Planck moment is all that ever exists; Here! Now!
Yes, the 'data display' that we perceive each moment is Knowledge!
Experience IS Knowledge!
In this (or any) moment, 'time' cannot exist (0+0+0...=0)!
No 'motion', no 'time' to explain the appearance of 'motion'!
Zeno proved long ago the impossibility of 'time' other than an appearance, a mirage.
Like rational, linear thought.
P2. None of our conscious processes are ‘exempt’ from this ‘time delay’, as ALL processes consume time.
With no 'time', there are no 'processes'!
C. Therefore, our ‘present’ conscious experience(s) are of ‘past’ events, and our ‘future’ (next) conscious experiences have already happened, (...we just don’t ‘know’ it yet).
Like all memory in a computer, there is hoards of programming, data! Accessing that data gives us web pages and pictures. Accessing data of Mind gives us the appearances that we perceive on our own little monitor.
So all that is perceived is memory, but it is no linear but Holistic; all moments of Universal existence already exist and is perceived.
All that is ever perceived is the One (unchanging, ALL inclusive) Universe/Reality/God/Self...!
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RJG
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by RJG »

nameless wrote:Zeno proved long ago the impossibility of 'time' other than an appearance, a mirage.
First of all, welcome nameless.

Secondly, Zeno’s Paradox is just a slight-of-hand parlor “trick”. It is NOT real. The reader is caught up in dividing “infinity”, but failing to realize that “infinity” is not divisible. What is infinity divided by 2? …still infinity. What is infinity + 5? …still infinity. What is infinity x 2 - 6? ...ummm, still infinity. Infinity is not a 'number' that can be mathematically manipulated. There is no impossibility of time. Zeno is just a parlor 'trick'! Don't fall for it!!!

RJG wrote:P2. None of our conscious processes are ‘exempt’ from this ‘time delay’, as ALL processes consume time.
nameless wrote:With no 'time', there are no 'processes'!
Although this statement is correct, IF (and that's a big “if”) there is 'no time', then there is ‘no time’ to "consciously do" anything! Conscious control (aka “free-will”, mental causation, conscious causation) or any form or notion of “consciously doing” anything is impossible without the existence of 'time'.

RJG wrote:C. Therefore, our ‘present’ conscious experience(s) are of ‘past’ events, and our ‘future’ (next) conscious experiences have already happened, (...we just don’t ‘know’ it yet).
nameless wrote:Like all memory in a computer, there is hoards of programming, data! Accessing that data gives us web pages and pictures. Accessing data of Mind gives us the appearances that we perceive on our own little monitor.
So all that is perceived is memory, but it is no linear but Holistic; all moments of Universal existence already exist and is perceived.
All that is ever perceived is the One (unchanging, ALL inclusive) Universe/Reality/God/Self...!
Without ‘time’, there can be no “accessing”, “perceiving”, "thinking" "feeling", "writing these words", or “doing” of anything. Without time 'nothing happens'.
Namelesss
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Re: What is CTD?

Post by Namelesss »

RJG wrote:
nameless wrote:Zeno proved long ago the impossibility of 'time' other than an appearance, a mirage.
First of all, welcome nameless.
Thank you! *__-
Secondly, Zeno’s Paradox is just a slight-of-hand parlor “trick”. It is NOT real.

Oh no! The logic is indisputable!
Doesn't logic trump the appearances of the senses?
He is not dividing infinites (there is no such thing), he is pointing out the impossibility of motion.
In order to move a meter, one must first move half a meter. In order to move a half meter, etc... etc... etc...
Proves that motion, in itself, is impossible.
And thus the theory of 'time' to explain the mirage of motion.
The first step cannot ever happen!
And we do live in One (unchanging, all inclusive) Universe/Reality!
Unchanging means no 'motion'.

RJG wrote:P2. None of our conscious processes are ‘exempt’ from this ‘time delay’, as ALL processes consume time.
nameless wrote:With no 'time', there are no 'processes'!
Although this statement is correct, IF (and that's a big “if”) there is 'no time', then there is ‘no time’ to "consciously do" anything! Conscious control (aka “free-will”, mental causation, conscious causation) or any form or notion of “consciously doing” anything is impossible without the existence of 'time'.[/quote]
Exactly!
Things ain't as they appear!
'Cause' and 'effect' is a clumsy way to say; two mutually arising opposite Perspectives of the same One Event!
'Causality/creation', as we imagine it, is impossible, of course.
Think of it this way, nothing ever 'changes', but every moment of Universal existence is a unique Perspective of the One, all inclusive, Reality/Truth!
All in One Universal Consciousness.
All moments Here! Now!
Without ‘time’, there can be no “accessing”, “perceiving”, "thinking" "feeling", "writing these words", or “doing” of anything. Without time 'nothing happens'.
That is true; without 'time', nothing happens!
The only thing that 'happens', is perception!
And time and motion is not required to perceive.
With no 'time', we perceive 'thought/ego'!
Timelessly we perceive 'feelings' (thoughts).
Without time, these words are perceived, as are the fingers as is the keyboard as is all the 'code' before us at this unique moment!
A unit of perception is a 'moment (Planck moment), a percept. All are unique.
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