Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by Burning ghost »

James -

I said this:

"The brain is what it is due to environment and gene interaction, plus chance."

If you refute this you're wrong and nothing else you say matters if you cannot show evidence to the contrary (which literally no scientist can to my knowledge.)

Also, I would appreciate if you clarify the use of "functional system" and "functional description"; I am assuming you just used a term Gertie introduced without realizing it made your distinction no distinction at all?

Thanks
AKA badgerjelly
Togo1
Posts: 541
Joined: September 23rd, 2015, 9:52 am

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by Togo1 »

Burning ghost wrote:"The brain is what it is due to environment and gene interaction, plus chance."

If you refute this you're wrong and nothing else you say matters if you cannot show evidence to the contrary (which literally no scientist can to my knowledge.)
I can't tell what this means. Presumably you're not saying the brain is literally made of chance and interaction, so are you saying the output of the brain is due to environment and gene interaction, plus chance? In which case, it's just a statement of soft determinism, isn't it? The state of the universe at time t+1 is determined by the state of the universe at time t, proceeding from natural laws (which in this case include random events).

If it's just a statement of determinism, the statement of an a priori espistemological assumption, then asking for evidence to refute it is kinda an empty gesture, no?
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by Burning ghost »

Togo -

Each thread has its context. I am here to understand James not make this or that claim on the workings of reality.
AKA badgerjelly
User avatar
JamesOfSeattle
Premium Member
Posts: 509
Joined: October 16th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

Burning ghost, I also cannot tell what you're getting at. I don't see anything in your statement that I need to refute. The statement is compatible with what I have been saying.

Here's my attempt at clarification you asked for: a functional system is a collection of matter that has both a physical description and a specified functional description. In theory, the functional description could be applied to a different collection of matter, and the original collection of matter could have a different functional description. It is the functional description of inputs that determines the qualia.

Does that work?

*
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by Chili »

Function appears very much to be in the eye of the beholder. Very often some part of an animal seems very much to have a certain function but then other functions seem more obvious after evolution has taken place - such as the deep sea Angler Fish.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/arti ... ing-depths

So in nature are there really functions?
User avatar
JamesOfSeattle
Premium Member
Posts: 509
Joined: October 16th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

Absolutely there are functions in nature. I'm assuming you are referring to the lure of the angler fish, which lure serves the function of attracting prey and also the function of attracting a mate. Just because a function is refined or a system is repurposed or multipurpose doesn't mean there's not a function.

*
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by Chili »

JamesOfSeattle wrote:Absolutely there are functions in nature. I'm assuming you are referring to the lure of the angler fish, which lure serves the function of attracting prey and also the function of attracting a mate. Just because a function is refined or a system is repurposed or multipurpose doesn't mean there's not a function.

*
One animal's physical body is another animal's food. In the interconnected ecosystem, the function of that prey animal's very existence depends on whose ox is being gored, so to speak. Fleas and other parasites live on and in mammal bodies, and the function of those body parts is up for debate. Evolution, non-directed, takes the shapes of ears and noses and blindly selects which just generally works better according to all kinds of factors - does this ear keep rain out of the interior? is it too long so that you trip on it? is it good at directing the sounds within? Is it of a color or size which is too attractive to predators? Insufficiently attractive to potential mates? And so based on a million types of happenstance, your organs and other body parts just kind of sort down into their present forms - some of which seem to have a strongly predominating function to our eye.

-- Updated November 12th, 2017, 2:12 pm to add the following --

I always think of this Monty Python bit in connection with natural selection and success/fitness:

"[The Piranha Brothers] would select a victim and then threaten to beat him up if he paid the so-called protection money.
Four months later they started another operation which the called 'The Other Operation'.
In this racket they selected another victim and threatened not to beat him up if he didn't pay them.
One month later they hit upon 'The Other Other Operation'.
In this the victim was threatened that if he didn't pay them, they would beat him up.
This for the Piranha brothers was the turning point."
User avatar
JamesOfSeattle
Premium Member
Posts: 509
Joined: October 16th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

Erm ... not getting your point.

*
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by Chili »

JamesOfSeattle wrote:Erm ... not getting your point.

*
Function is something that people imagine. They can build it into something that they make, and then complain when someone else uses it for a different function, saying, for instance, "Hey don't treat that as a chair - it is high art!".

To say anything natural has a function is to anthropomorphise nature. If God created a rabbit to feed Adam and Even, then by all means, it would be sacrilege to imagine it having another function. If a rabbit evolved by natural selection, then surely it has no function, and no part of it really has a function. You can say that the heart pumps blood, and pumping blood is necessary, and no other part of the rabbit can pump its blood, and so then surely by that reasoning the heart has that functioning. But this is very different from a person designing a rabbit and making sure it has a heart to perform the blood-pumping function.
User avatar
JamesOfSeattle
Premium Member
Posts: 509
Joined: October 16th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

Okay, I almost sorta get what you're saying. You're saying function is an invention of an intelligent mind.

I have a different definition of function, and I'm pretty sure that by the rules of philosophical argument you have to go by my definition. Unfortunately (fortunately for me?) a complete explanation of how function comes about in nature is beyond the scope of this thread, but I feel pretty comfortable in thinking that most people agree with me that nature created the eyeball for the function of seeing, that the eyeball thus created contains a lens that has its own function within that system, and that these functions would apply in the complete absence of humans.

*
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by Chili »

Nature had this idea first before the eye existed? Back when the eyeball was nothing more than a glint in Nature's eye, so to speak?
User avatar
JamesOfSeattle
Premium Member
Posts: 509
Joined: October 16th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

On further consideration it occurs to me that Chili is actually talking about the distinction in purpose. There are two things I'm aware of that actually generate purpose. One is nature, and this is how we get functional parts in living things. The second is creative intelligence which generates goals. These goals become the purpose of the things we design.

I'm gonna guess that Chili and others may deny that nature generates purpose. All I can say is that nature does something that looks like purpose and has the same results as purpose (think the lens in an eyeball v. the lens in a camera), so I feel okay calling it purpose.

*
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by Chili »

"Nothing succeeds like success."

So, the Piranha Brothers settled on "the Other Other operation" after trying other ways of going about things. Was this outcome something done or created by nature? After all, the thugs didn't seem to be able to intelligently design an operation, but just ended up able to recognize success when it happened.
User avatar
JamesOfSeattle
Premium Member
Posts: 509
Joined: October 16th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

That's called selection. The Piranha Brothers selected the "other other" option as the useful/functional option. There's a very good chance that is exactly how intelligently designed function is always generated, except most people do simplistic "trials" in their head. But to each his own.

As for whether it was done by nature, the simple answer is yes. Everything that happens is natural. But a purpose generated by intelligence stands as a meta-purpose relative to the purpose generated by nature. Thus, an intelligent, creative, purpose-creating brain was created by nature for the purpose of duplicating genes. This is not to say that "Nature" had an "idea" or "purpose". This is just to say that there is a natural mechanism that created a kind of pressure to create something with a function, and we can call that pressure a purpose. I guess if you want to insist that only an intelligence can generate purpose, we can call the naturally created purpose a proto-purpose instead. And then the functions created by the proto-purpose are proto-functions. Not sure what that buys you.

*
For what it's worth, artificial intelligence will generate meta-meta-purposes. Or maybe just meta-purposes if we go with proto-purposes.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Are qualia functional descriptions of meaning?

Post by Burning ghost »

JamesOfSeattle wrote:Burning ghost, I also cannot tell what you're getting at. I don't see anything in your statement that I need to refute. The statement is compatible with what I have been saying.

Here's my attempt at clarification you asked for: a functional system is a collection of matter that has both a physical description and a specified functional description. In theory, the functional description could be applied to a different collection of matter, and the original collection of matter could have a different functional description. It is the functional description of inputs that determines the qualia.

Does that work?

*
Not really. The term "function system" serves no purpose I can see. Why is it significant? It looks to me like the "functional system" is the same as the "physical description". The physical description is after all just the structure ("collection of matter").
AKA badgerjelly
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021