Stop Saying You Are Independent

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Steve3007
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Re: Stop Saying You Are Independent

Post by Steve3007 » December 15th, 2017, 6:38 am

It's easy to imagine that personal freedom will eventually be reduced purely to the realm of virtual reality where one can't do any damage.
I suppose it would be quite ironic if the way to escape distraction by interfering hominids in the future was to escape into a hominid-free virtual reality created by those hominids.
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

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Greta
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Re: Stop Saying You Are Independent

Post by Greta » December 15th, 2017, 8:04 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
December 15th, 2017, 6:38 am
It's easy to imagine that personal freedom will eventually be reduced purely to the realm of virtual reality where one can't do any damage.
I suppose it would be quite ironic if the way to escape distraction by interfering hominids in the future was to escape into a hominid-free virtual reality created by those hominids.
The fractal geometry of life! It's maybe worth adding that the hominid-free virtual reality would be created by interfering hominids with the very intent of allowing the hominid masses an escape route. It's a bit like, instead of killing a bug in your home, you put it outside where it won't cause you problems.

Steve3007
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Re: Stop Saying You Are Independent

Post by Steve3007 » December 18th, 2017, 5:41 am

Greta wrote:...created by interfering hominids with the very intent of allowing the hominid masses an escape route...
Reminds me a bit of the end of Brave New World where the people who can't fit in with the soma-controlled world of mainstream society all live on a little island together. But the use of virtual reality would mean that, if they wanted it, each person could have their own island.
"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." - Eric Cantona.

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Greta
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Re: Stop Saying You Are Independent

Post by Greta » December 18th, 2017, 6:03 am

Steve3007 wrote:
December 18th, 2017, 5:41 am
Greta wrote:...created by interfering hominids with the very intent of allowing the hominid masses an escape route...
Reminds me a bit of the end of Brave New World where the people who can't fit in with the soma-controlled world of mainstream society all live on a little island together. But the use of virtual reality would mean that, if they wanted it, each person could have their own island.
Exactly. I expect that the activities in VR will be monitored, catalogued and analysed to the nth degree to further inform the and shape the worlds, and inform as to human nature.

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HomoFaber
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Re: Stop Saying You Are Independent

Post by HomoFaber » December 30th, 2017, 3:19 pm

HomoFaber wrote:
November 26th, 2017, 1:19 pm
ZoneOfNonBeing wrote: Since we all use language, we are automatically involved in a chain of connection. Language implies the existence of other people to communicate with. To learn a language is to become involved in a relationship.
(...) We do not create the languages we speak, we are born into an ongoing conversation.
(...) Language refers to an alphabet, words, rules of grammar, and a system of numbers used to send a message. Humans are the only species that use language. However, language is not simply an instrument. Language is the ultimate expression of humanity. We require recognition from others to gain coherence at all – and language makes that possible. Humans are language and language is human.Humans use language because, unlike other animals, we have self-consciousness. This self-consciousness separates us from others (i.e. ‘I’ am not ‘you’) and the external world (i.e. ‘I’ am not ‘that’). Language is an attempt to fill these gaps. Thus, language is always deployed in the service of unity.
(...)
language is dependency. Language prohibits independence.
In the quest to understand humanness (philosophy) you have found the holy grail. language is IT, the entirety of what makes us human. Forget about self-consciousness. The octopus passes the mirror test and therefore possesses self-consciousness. Homosapien-ism is a bunny trail.

But having found the grail you try to use it to buttress a preexisting ideology: the virtue of unity. This is subjectivity or "the discourse of the other,” and, I think, is what Burning Ghost argued against. Take a more objective look at language.

Language is vocabulary and syntax. My dog has a vocabulary but no syntax. Only humans have vocabulary and syntax. Only humans have language. Repeat this herescy often enough and you will become embroiled in the argument that language, like your independence, is merely relative, that humans have just a slightly more advanced language than the animals do. At that point, especially if you really are enamored with unity, you might throw the grail away and forget about all this.

Here is where you have taken a wrong turn: Because we learn language from the collective doesn't mean that we can't take our language skill into our own private worlds and using our inner-voice have discourse with ourselves - i.e. thinking. (understand that in this private world "the discourse of others" always tries to invade but with discipline they can be repelled, subjectivity [the discourse of others] is relative to the strength of the individual thinker) When I have a conversation with myself I am no more relating to the collective which gave it to me than I am relating to Prometheus when I light a fire.

Here is a test for you to do as a pure individual entirely independent of the collective. In the still of the night try to think about some idea while gagging your inner-voice.

You might find that the incredible power of language is not about enhancing our social connectivity (many animal species are socially connected), but language is the power of abstract thinking and the freedom it gives the creative individual to transcend reality - to think outside the box. ("box" = the real world and the subjectivity of the collective)
Dude stop casting your pearls. Nobody is going to look with-in to understand their human-ness.

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