Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
chondriac
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Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by chondriac »

Hey I'm new here!

Anyway, consider the following in regard to self-awareness. The prevailing question here: what consequences follow if I was disconnected to my sensory organs, memory, experiences, emotions, beliefs so all I have is my ability to think. Would anything happen? There'd be no reason for anything to happen, no feelings of boredom to motivate action, no desires, etc.

The vapor of air that is considered the mind, if left undisturbed would not be able to make any coherence to itself or for itself, what tools would it have to do so? The tools that allow this unit of ambiguity to reflect to itself for the sake of knowing itself as anything is the correspondence of external and internal functions for the sake of awareness, or to "be". It cannot be “something”, because if unattached to its body or sensory organs it can't be anything known to itself, it cannot “be”, there is nothing identifiable to warrant a response to be apparent to itself.

It is a response to something that triggers awareness. The source for response is the world, and the tools utilized to tap into it the rational, perceptual, and emotional centers of force. The origin of this awareness can be represented via various systems of interpretation (science, religion) but these do not explain what it is relative to itself. I will say what the mind is aware of is not itself, but rather itself only when corresponding to the world. It is not self-aware, but more precisely "self-world aware", how is awareness of self alone possible if it could not logically be anything that isn’t represented as nothing in comparison?

By this logic the self is represented with nothing, and the world something. But just because there is nothing doesn't mean it's nature holds the same aspects of nothingness. So we have this connection of nothing to something, will the nothing become anything that isn’t nothing by joining with the something? If I add nothing to something, I end up with the same something. Therefore, because the world is the something to which I refer, does the world that I perceive become the self by this logic? Am I the world? Or my personal world? Or is it that that is the ultimate end for life, aligning my nature with the world which is, for the sake of my own "to be"?

However simple addition is uncertain in its capability to apply to this case without considering possibility unknown aspects of the connection left unrepresented, to add nothing to something, which leaves me with the something. At the least trying to connect references to what being is, to clear the ambiguity of how it relates to nature, is just to say I learn about it. That applies to anything.
Jan Sand
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by Jan Sand »

I am not sure this is on topic but as I age I more or less tested myself in different avenues of interest and capability and discovered that I can perform to a certain extent in a few but not well enough to get excited and energized in even the areas wherein I find some abilities. There is still a fund of energy I would like to apply but I am at a loss as to how to direct it in a rewarding area. Humanity in general seems to be industrially working to destroy, not only much of the beauty of the planet but the more basic qualities that keep us all alive and well cared for and interested. On that basis I find people quite puzzling and very little of what and who I seem to be finds value in much of what consists of human society. Although I have indulged in fantasies that I somehow am not human, medical examinations of various qualities find no substantial physiological differences between me and the rest of humanity. So I remain puzzled and frustrated. And most curious as to what I should do with the rest of my life. I remain in reasonable health and, for that I am grateful but that is not enough.
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JamesOfSeattle
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

Chondriac,

As a functionalist, I understand the self to be a functional agent. Such an agent produces outputs in response to inputs. What you suggest is taking away all the inputs. In such a case, the agent is still extant, just not doing anything. So most of what you say is correct except that doing nothing is not the same as being nothing.

Jan Sand,

I suggest you do what you’re doing: provide your perspective.

*
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by Jan Sand »

Thanks, but it's not very helpful.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by Sy Borg »

Consider that you have a near death experience like many others have had, where you find yourself bodiless in absolute nothingness. All of your senses have shut down and much of your brain has gone to sleep, so there is just this sense of being (although the dying person is seemingly always rescued from the nothingness by a bright light).

If the light did not appear, how long could one mentally survive? When you are in a subjective nothingness you have nothing but memories. Over time there will mostly be memories of recalling memories, becoming ever more diluted until ultimately the edifice must logically collapse through lack of new information/stimuli. Just as a digestive system will eat itself without food, the mind metaphorically would seemingly do the same thing.
Jan Sand
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by Jan Sand »

Since I have never had a near death experience I cannot comment sensibly on that but my understanding of the human mind and how it functions has convinced me that our sense of reality is a useful illusion to permit us to react and preserve our physical existence. From this I can only presume that the near death experience is an illusion as well and must be considered from that viewpoint.
StayCurious
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by StayCurious »

Regardless of religious background, most if not all NDEs I have heard of have resulted in an overwhelming sense of interconnectedness with nature, one that most closely related to the Hindu philosophy of Vedanta, stating that "we are all God", but in less of a Jahova sense of the word and more of a "universal" sense, being defined simply as "all that is" essentially in alignment with what Lao Tzu described to be the indescribable "Dao".

Mystical experiences have happened since the dawn of man, experiences wherein some sort of light goes off in someone's mind and they feel this same experience, this oneness and ultimate harmoniousness with all of existence. This is essentially what the Zen Buddhists are all about, the religion of nothing and everything.

Of course many people have false ideas of Buddhism only having heard several quotes or mistranslations by a Buddha or Bodhisattva, such as "empty the mind" or "life is suffering", but many of these people also are not aware that these were not his final words, but merely openings of a dialogue!

If curious on your relation to the world around you, I've found most satisfying answers personally searching Eastern philosophy, particularly Buddhism and studying Alan Watts, a philosopher who popularized Eastern philosophy for a Western audience. Lots of beauty to be found there :)
chondriac
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by chondriac »

>As a functionalist, I understand the self to be a functional agent. Such an agent produces outputs in response to inputs. What you >suggest is taking away all the inputs. In such a case, the agent is still extant, just not doing anything. So most of what you say is >correct except that doing nothing is not the same as being nothing.

I don't think I know if I identify with any interpretation via theory, mythology or lie but at the moment it makes sense that everything is external and I am a reflection of the external regardless of what mediation internally takes place.

The being in question defined by the agent mediating outputs which are caused by the inputs? Do you think it is the actual that is or the center of force or agent which is in potential? If the latter was the case I can't see any distinguishing between people, which may not be bad, but potential for the actual doesn't seem holistic for being if the world mediates the agent in question. I don't mean to say I don't have free will, but the method for coming into being is a method that will always be on the way to being until, for the sake of progress, advancement, knowledge etc. the manifold capacities of being are no longer put in opposition to each other. If it is the case that the self is a culmination of output, or at least that which can be detected seems to only depend on what the world provides, then inputs would be epiphenomenal to self, not the identity for self but a coming into being that flows regardless of an agent which can only alter if conditions are volitionally chosen to change the inputs, which will change the outputs, which changes a capacity of coming into being.

@Jan Sand

Everything's on topic when it's Metaphysics! You sound like you have an unsated curiosity, maybe try psychedelics once or twice (I don't recommend more than that) or regular at a rock climbing gym, both are good existential activities. Also you may like George Gurdjieff.
Jan Sand
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by Jan Sand »

I've tried psychedelics and roller coasters and merry-go-rounds and kaleidoscopes but as momentarily as they are amusing the have very little to do with reality. Artificially subjecting myself to unnecessary dangers may be good exercise for my anal function but I have problems enough in just encouraging myself to stay alive. The whole world is headed for horrible disasters out of the enthusiasms of the total idiots now in general power who considers their bank accounts more important than keeping the planet in working condition so, even with the best of hopes I doubt this planet will sustain human life for more than a few decades and I am grateful, at the current age of 92, that I will not see the worst. Voltaire and Orwell and H.G.Wells were informed enough about the idiocy of humanity and its inherent cruelty to understand what the final outcome will be in one form or another and it has taken me a long life to come to the same conclusion.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by Sy Borg »

Indeed Jan. Humans lack the tremendous wisdom of other species. Worse, on their first day of sentience humans were provided with Sustainable Living for Dominant Intelligent Species: The Definitive Manual - a comprehensive instructional book drawing from the great experience of the biosphere with its many prior examples of dominant, intelligent hominids.

But did we read the manual? No! Instead we kept making mistakes due to lack of experience. Inexcusable! We should have known hundreds of years ago that burning fossil fuels would one day change the climate. Worse again, we are failing to do the equivalent of captaining the Titanic to perform a U-turn on a twenty cent piece! Bad humans!
Jan Sand
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by Jan Sand »

For hundreds of years humans have tried to change the weather by singing, dancing and prayers. Looks like we finally managed, but I wouldn't call that a plus. Evidently we made a mistake when we discovered how to make a fire.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by Sy Borg »

Try to imagine humanity if it had not learned how to make fire. Not too smart. Even Australian raptors grab burning embers from bushfires and start new spot fires to flush out small prey.

Then again, without opposable thumbs we would have been held in check. However, our arboreal ancestors brought these potent digits down from the trees and they were useful enough to stay in the gene pool.

The damn mess you keep referring to was all inevitable IMO, just a matter of time. I have tried to imagine alternative paths but the problem is life's inherent opportunism. Like water on a cracked path, life explores every possibility (naturally enough, given that life is mostly water anyway) and that includes the exploration of legal and moral loopholes. Every single one.

Now consider the "noble savage" before all this. People living beautiful lives in relative harmony with nature (aside from human sacrifice and devising some of humanity's the most terrifying torture methods). Otherwise life was perfect, well, aside from all the damn parasites - bacteria, viruses, intestinal worms. Oh, and lack of shelter in harsh weather. Not to mention infant mortality. And sleeping on hard ground infested with insects, spiders and snakes. Of course there were some problems with predators too, although probably less than the issues of invading tribes who'd rape the women and kill the young.

Even if indigenous communities were as idyllic as can sometimes be presented, they were always vulnerable to any visiting, more technologically inclined, races. Opportunism again. If there is a niche, an opportunity, it will be found. It's generally just a matter of time. Life itself is a wicked problem with no clear solution, yet somehow biology has explored and blundered its way from microbes to space-faring hominids. You could say that life is problematically effective :)
Jan Sand
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by Jan Sand »

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Sy Borg
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by Sy Borg »

Jan Sand wrote: March 4th, 2018, 5:36 am Beware of the noble savage. See https://www.eurozine.com/change-course-human-history/
Exactly. Move forward, not back.

I see Utopia to only be possible in the digital realm. Biology hurts; it's that simple. Now if we can be digitised - and that brings us back to the topic at hand - that will change everything. Billions of human minds consuming digital rather than physical resources. Sense of self as a digital entity would be an interesting thing.
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WiseGodCeeTruth
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Re: Interaction of Awareness, Self, and World

Post by WiseGodCeeTruth »

"The vapor of air that is considered the mind, if left undisturbed would not be able to make any coherence to itself or for itself, what tools would it have to do so?"

The Divine Mind in it's first nation (imagi-nation - which is infinite) gave birth to all through the Word; rising over the sublimation of Triple Darkness, a single light in the dark. The mind (the single monad, the Divine intelligence) is capable of manifestation through a single thought (the Word). So, we, although we are living in physicality, are able to manifest with our minds - consciously or otherwise.

My answer to your question is: it has all the tools within itself already, it only needs to recognize itself as a thinker. Once it realizes that, it knows itself (Rene Descartes - "I think, therefore I am") as it is an omniscient force. When the mind 'wakes up', the mind recognizes itself instantly ("Samadhi"); it is still active in it's sleep, though passively-active, but in another dimension (say another Universe, another creation). Think, like a dream.
~The mind realizes itself in nothingness. That great dragon we call the mind.

The real question is: must the inquiry regarding self-awareness gain stead, or is the answer already there for any whom are willing to place faith, and practice, [in] absolute Truth?
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