How can there be a metaphysical world?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Burning ghost »

You asked me to chime in.

I just see a lot of imprecise word shuffling.

First of it makes sense for BOTH of you to clear up the terminology and make sure you're talking about the same thing and understand the general approach you're both taking (in terms of more generalized -isms, such as rationalism, empiricism, pragmatism, materialism, etc.,. - and there numerous interlacing branches.)

Then there is the the problem of understand where in this mess you're placing the term "exist".

To sum I have little to go in understanding what the argument is about, what is being refuted or whether I should care about any of this. The title is also quite peculiar? What doe sit mean? The OP doesn't shed much light on what it is you wish to discuss.

If you "recently heard" about some "ultimate reality" then I would suggest you provide links so we understand the context.

If a man called Gerald exists in a star system a few million light years away then for me he may as well not exist. If he exists completely independent of my universe, meaning independent of my "reality", then it is nonsensical and for all intents and purposes doesn't exist except as a concept through which I can investigate metaphysical ideas (so he exists in one sense in one way, and he exists in another sense in another way.)

If something exists in a universe separate of which I do not understand the natural structure, and which will remain confined and cut of from my universe (it is impossible for me to sense or know of in any direct or indirect manner) then it doesn't exist for me.

The planet Jupiter doesn't exist for the creatures at the bottom of the ocean which never rise to the surface, if they rise to the surface they will die - although it is conceiveable that we could remove this fish from the bottom of the ocean and transport it across space to Jupiter so it could "experience" Jupiter. So what?

We don't know our limits until we reach them and we generally don't branch out beyond our comfort zone for mortal reasons and a general appreciation of life.

Logically you can state "truths". Anything is proveable given the support of certain premises.
AKA badgerjelly
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Namelesss put forward the idea for an ultimate reality or at least a metaphysical reality, in another topic. That is where I heard about this. The title was named that way because of his claim of a metaphysical world. The op was referencing what namelesss said in the other thread. There isn't really a reason to care.
Namelesss's argument for the existence of a metaphysical world was based on this :
Existence is ALL inclusive!
Reality is predicated on that which exists.
Thus Reality is ALL inclusive!
Truth is predicated on that which exists/Reality.
Thus Truth is ALL inclusive!

And my response was:
You are also committing the fallacy of begging the question. When you say existence is all inclusive, this includes reality, and you follow this by saying reality is predicated on that which exists, meaning it exists because of its own existence!
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Was he begging the question?
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Burning ghost »

Call existence A and reality B

He says A <=> B

Then he says if A and/or B then C, where C is "Truth"

So he is saying existence is reality and reality is truth and truth is existence. It is a tautological proof. I would say it is disingenuous because logic is generally used to define "truth" and he is using "truth" as a component of his logical assertion ... so you're better of ignoring people like this or play the game of trying to explain something to them they will likely obstinately refuse to take into account (I have done the same thing with RJG for years - he doesn't shift his position because his interest is superficial. Maybe Nameless will be willing to explicate further and maybe not?)

At the end of the say we've got to start somewhere I guess. The usefulness of those who don't put serious time and effort into studying, due either to the circumstances of their lives or the seriousness of their position, is that they can reveal points you've missed. Takes a sharp eye to spot though and maybe we're the foolish to even bother as much as they are foolish to bother with us.

Yes, people talk past each other. If they didn't things would get pretty dull pretty quickly.

No doubt it makes sense to him on some level. There is always a point where even the most staunch claims and procedures hit a wall of comprehension. Most people, including myself, tend to act defensively when they stumble onto grounds they are unsure of and simply repeat themselves struggling to find another way to explicate it both for themselves and for others.

If you don't find something difficult, interesting and annoying, you're likely doing it wrong :D
AKA badgerjelly
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Thank you very much sir. This was very helpful. I will be able to spot this kind of thing a lot sooner. I wish I had been able to think of tautological proof.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021