How can there be a metaphysical world?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Burning ghost
Posts: 2213
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Burning ghost » December 22nd, 2017, 3:00 am

You asked me to chime in.

I just see a lot of imprecise word shuffling.

First of it makes sense for BOTH of you to clear up the terminology and make sure you're talking about the same thing and understand the general approach you're both taking (in terms of more generalized -isms, such as rationalism, empiricism, pragmatism, materialism, etc.,. - and there numerous interlacing branches.)

Then there is the the problem of understand where in this mess you're placing the term "exist".

To sum I have little to go in understanding what the argument is about, what is being refuted or whether I should care about any of this. The title is also quite peculiar? What doe sit mean? The OP doesn't shed much light on what it is you wish to discuss.

If you "recently heard" about some "ultimate reality" then I would suggest you provide links so we understand the context.

If a man called Gerald exists in a star system a few million light years away then for me he may as well not exist. If he exists completely independent of my universe, meaning independent of my "reality", then it is nonsensical and for all intents and purposes doesn't exist except as a concept through which I can investigate metaphysical ideas (so he exists in one sense in one way, and he exists in another sense in another way.)

If something exists in a universe separate of which I do not understand the natural structure, and which will remain confined and cut of from my universe (it is impossible for me to sense or know of in any direct or indirect manner) then it doesn't exist for me.

The planet Jupiter doesn't exist for the creatures at the bottom of the ocean which never rise to the surface, if they rise to the surface they will die - although it is conceiveable that we could remove this fish from the bottom of the ocean and transport it across space to Jupiter so it could "experience" Jupiter. So what?

We don't know our limits until we reach them and we generally don't branch out beyond our comfort zone for mortal reasons and a general appreciation of life.

Logically you can state "truths". Anything is proveable given the support of certain premises.
AKA badgerjelly

Maxcady10001
Posts: 434
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 » December 22nd, 2017, 3:15 am

Namelesss put forward the idea for an ultimate reality or at least a metaphysical reality, in another topic. That is where I heard about this. The title was named that way because of his claim of a metaphysical world. The op was referencing what namelesss said in the other thread. There isn't really a reason to care.
Namelesss's argument for the existence of a metaphysical world was based on this :
Existence is ALL inclusive!
Reality is predicated on that which exists.
Thus Reality is ALL inclusive!
Truth is predicated on that which exists/Reality.
Thus Truth is ALL inclusive!

And my response was:
You are also committing the fallacy of begging the question. When you say existence is all inclusive, this includes reality, and you follow this by saying reality is predicated on that which exists, meaning it exists because of its own existence!

Maxcady10001
Posts: 434
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 » December 22nd, 2017, 3:16 am

Was he begging the question?

Burning ghost
Posts: 2213
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Burning ghost » December 22nd, 2017, 4:10 am

Call existence A and reality B

He says A <=> B

Then he says if A and/or B then C, where C is "Truth"

So he is saying existence is reality and reality is truth and truth is existence. It is a tautological proof. I would say it is disingenuous because logic is generally used to define "truth" and he is using "truth" as a component of his logical assertion ... so you're better of ignoring people like this or play the game of trying to explain something to them they will likely obstinately refuse to take into account (I have done the same thing with RJG for years - he doesn't shift his position because his interest is superficial. Maybe Nameless will be willing to explicate further and maybe not?)

At the end of the say we've got to start somewhere I guess. The usefulness of those who don't put serious time and effort into studying, due either to the circumstances of their lives or the seriousness of their position, is that they can reveal points you've missed. Takes a sharp eye to spot though and maybe we're the foolish to even bother as much as they are foolish to bother with us.

Yes, people talk past each other. If they didn't things would get pretty dull pretty quickly.

No doubt it makes sense to him on some level. There is always a point where even the most staunch claims and procedures hit a wall of comprehension. Most people, including myself, tend to act defensively when they stumble onto grounds they are unsure of and simply repeat themselves struggling to find another way to explicate it both for themselves and for others.

If you don't find something difficult, interesting and annoying, you're likely doing it wrong :D
AKA badgerjelly

Maxcady10001
Posts: 434
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 » December 22nd, 2017, 4:19 am

Thank you very much sir. This was very helpful. I will be able to spot this kind of thing a lot sooner. I wish I had been able to think of tautological proof.

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