How can there be a metaphysical world?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

I've recently heard of some "ultimate reality", or a "reality" that exists independently of this one, one that is unconditioned. But a "reality" that is unconditioned, is a reality-in-itself. After hearing of this, I went looking for something that I'd read before that I believe completely refutes "anything-in-itself", or any "ultimate reality."

"The properties of a thing are effects on other "things": if one removes other "things," then a thing has no properties, i.e., there is no thing without other things, i.e., there is no "thing-in-itself." (The Will to Power, pg.302)

This applies to any notions of a "reality-in-itself", there cannot be any "reality" without anyone to interpret it as such. There is nothing that is unconditioned.
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Namelesss »

Maxcady10001 wrote: December 18th, 2017, 2:21 pm I've recently heard of some "ultimate reality", or a "reality" that exists independently of this one, one that is unconditioned. But a "reality" that is unconditioned, is a reality-in-itself. After hearing of this, I went looking for something that I'd read before that I believe completely refutes "anything-in-itself", or any "ultimate reality."
Before we get into the heads of other thinkers, lets use our own, for a moment.
I will define what I mean when I refer to 'Reality' (not 'ultimate reality' as there is only One Reality!
Ready?
Reality = ALL inclusive!
The complete One unchanging Universe, ever!

Follow;
Everything exists!
Existence is ALL inclusive!
Reality is predicated on that which exists.
Thus Reality is ALL inclusive!
Truth is predicated on that which exists/Reality.
Thus Truth is ALL inclusive!

You are right, there is no 'ultimate reality', there is, however, the one ALL inclusive Reality, the Omni-, One! 'metaphysical' (greater than physical) Reality.
The (conditional) Reality of the 'physical' is the most superficial of Perspectives, and far from a 'good theory'.
A 'good theory' is Universally applicable, sometimes (crudely) called a 'Law'.

"...scientists are condemned by their unexamined assumptions to study the nature of mirrors only by cataloging and investigating everything that mirrors can reflect. It is an endless process that never makes progress, that never reaches closure, that generates endless debate between those who have seen different reflected images, and whose enduring product is voluminous descriptions of particular phenomena." - The Adapted Mind

"The properties of a thing are effects on other "things": if one removes other "things," then a thing has no properties, i.e., there is no thing without other things, i.e., there is no "thing-in-itself." (The Will to Power, pg.302)
I won't examine the thought as the one who had it is not present to defend.
This applies to any notions of a "reality-in-itself", there cannot be any "reality" without anyone to interpret it as such. There is nothing that is unconditioned.
Let me help; Reality cannot be Known unless experienced!
Experience is Knowledge.
Dragging in thoughts/ego to 'interpret/imagine' our experience is fine, just never believe any of it...
and remain sane!

Reality has no context and is thus, unconditional, a monism, One Omni- ALL inclusive!
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Ready?

You cannot know if reality is all inclusive because to know or experience something is to be in a conditional relationship, and one cannot be in a conditional relationship with what is unconditional! Defeated by your own reasoning of reality as unconditional!

What is unconditional can never be known, because it has no conditions!

How do you even trust your own definition of reality when you even say not to trust ego/thought!

Also, reality is always in context, it is always conditional, just consider your own apparent reality, everything is conditioned, everything is happening in the context of your life.

Also, I would like you to address the quote I provided because I do not believe there is a refutation for it and if you know of one, I would like to see it so I can stop saying there is no refutation for it.
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Namelesss »

Maxcady10001 wrote: December 18th, 2017, 9:33 pmWhat is unconditional can never be known, because it has no conditions!
Your error is in the traditional equating of Knowledge with thoughts/ego.
Experience sans thoughts/ego is experience of the unconditional. Only 'thought
All 'conditions' exist only in 'thought/ego/imagination! Context is necessary to Know all, but just as knowing a spark plug is not knowing the complete engine as a feature of the Complete Engine!
The 'Complete Engine" being unKnowable to any (inherently limited Perspective), we can accept the conditional knowledge of the spark plug as a feature of the conditional knowledge of the engine.
The sum total of all 'thought/ego/conditional Knowledge is but a feature if the Whole, a subset by which the whole is Known.
How do you even trust your own definition of reality when you even say not to trust ego/thought!
Experience, ALL experience is of the One Reality!
My 'definition' of Reality, other than logically supported, as I have demonstrated, is based on experience/Knowledge, science, philosophy.
Rather than diverging into these areas, first refute my oh so simple logic leading to an ALL inclusive Rerality/existence/Truth.
Ego is basically schizophrenia; the fragmentation of that which is One!
It is the USEFUL tool, THE useful tool, but to 'believe' that these flickering images that we perceive is any accurate representation of the larger One Reality IS schizophrenia!
Thus it is insanity to 'believe' in a 'make-believe' world!

Illustration;

'Point to the left'.
Easy.
Note where you are pointing.
Now turn 1 degree and point to the left.
Again note the results.
Now another degree, etc...
And another 1/4 of a degree...
Turn in every possible direction, on every possible axis!
It turns out that every direction is 'left', 'left' is a 'cloud needing a particular Perspective to have any 'direction' at all!
Now point to the 'right'!
Same drill!
Note that the exact same cloud of 'left', is also, at the same moment, a cloud of 'right'!
And a cloud of 'up'!
And a cloud of 'down'...
Do the experiment!

The only 'distinctions' that can even be called 'left' or 'right', OR 'up' and 'down'... are a matter of Perspective!

Ultimately, We are One (unchanging (motionless), all inclusive) 'Cloud'/Reality!!
Also, reality is always in context, it is always conditional, just consider your own apparent reality, everything is conditioned, everything is happening in the context of your life.
Notice your use of the definitive 'is', and it's obsolescence.
The ball "is" not red: "I perceive the ball, at this moment, to be red!"
We cannot make such definitive statements about what we perceive. There is no 'object' to have any 'qualities' inherent.
There is Mind/coding that We, from our unique Perspectives, perceive.
The 'ball' that exists in Mind/thought appears red.
'Reality is PERCEIVED/Known/experienced in the 'artificial expedient' of context.
Ultraviolet light makes ringworm visible. That makes it obvious that ringworm is 'violet' in color? Sure looks like that, but we know otherwise. It is an artificial experient.
Like thought/ego.
Also, I would like you to address the quote I provided because I do not believe there is a refutation for it and if you know of one, I would like to see it so I can stop saying there is no refutation for it.
Seems to me that is another topic, and work.
Perhaps I'll touch on the first error that I see.
"The properties of a thing are

First refutable error; the misapplication of 'is' ('are')!
In this case, he leaves no space for that which "is" this, to also be 'that'. It is an error of thought, a fallacy.

Please see;

TOWARD UNDERSTANDING E -PRIME

Robert Anton Wilson

http://www.nobeliefs.com/eprime.htm
effects on other "things": if one removes other "things," then a thing has no properties,

Another problem is his constant (mis)use of 'thing', as if it is not a mirage, a 'translation by ego/thought of 'information waves/Mind, but an actual existence beyond Self!
All that is necessary to discern 'qualities', any qualities, is the Perspective to perceive them in thought/ego.
In the Zen state, the thoughtless state, there can be no 'red'.
i.e., there is no thing without other things, i.e., there is no "thing-in-itself." (The Will to Power, pg.302)
No 'thing' in itself, divorced from the One Reality of apparent 'things', divorced from the reality of 'things' being no more than 'coding' that we 'interpret/perceive, like your monitor.
I can go on, but i don't see the point.
He was obviously unaware of modern scientific findings/QM.
All sciences are feeder branches on the tree of philosophy!
As science 'changes', so must philosophy.
When did he write his book?
"To speak is to lie! To teach is to lie with conviction!"
Beware writing books! *__-
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

There is another problem with this that I have just realized. Your logic leads to an infinite regress. As you say the engine is unknowable so we accept we are a condition of a part of a larger part, but we could easily be a part, of a part, of a part, of a part. At least that is where your reasoning with the car parts leads. It is also funny you are claiming to know the sum total part is unknowable, this seems like contradiction to me, to know something is unknowable.

Your definition of reality as all inclusive works under the condition that there is a reality to be included, and your definition is also based on the thoughts/ego that you use to experience reality. You can only say reality is unconditional because your thought/ego does. More conditions! Your very definition of reality is conditioned by thought/ego

Another question: why would what is unknowable have parts that are knowable? Wouldn't all of what is unknowable be unknowable?

How is it that by conditions(thought/ego) you can know you are unconditional? Your refutation of this was that conditions are nonexistent. But I thought reality was all inclusive! By your logic if conditions are nonexistent, nothing exists! Because conditions are part of reality. None of the rest follows if all of reality does not exists, if there are no conditions.

If it is all an artificial experience how can you know it is an artificial experience? Another contradicting statement! How can what is "false" know what is "true"?

Also, something you keep doing, is separating experience/knowledge from thought/ego. This is a mistake. What you know is a product of your ego/thoughts, you cannot know something outside of what you can think, which is what you are claiming. So your definition of reality is, as mentioned before a product of your thought/ego.

Your argument is not at all logical, once you consider that you're saying a part has knowledge of what is on the whole unknowable. Though I may be repeating myself here. I just wanted to emphasize the rest of your logic does not follow with the first assertion that reality is all inclusive, because you're saying a part can know an unknowable whole.

Your criticisms of the quote do not stand either, because if you change the first phrase to the properties of a thing seem like other things it still works. Your other criticism is pays no mind to the quotation marks, which signify exactly what your claiming they don't. And your last criticism does not acknowledge the relevance of this quote. You are saying reality is unconditional, meaning it is a thing-in-itself. By saying this you have divorced reality from all other things, when it is only reality in relation to all other things, you should see this, since you said reality is all inclusive.
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Namelesss »

Maxcady10001 wrote: December 19th, 2017, 1:16 am There is another problem with this that I have just realized. Your logic leads to an infinite regress. As you say the engine is unknowable so we accept we are a condition of a part of a larger part, but we could easily be a part, of a part, of a part, of a part. At least that is where your reasoning with the car parts leads.
Yes, a feature of the whole is also a feature of all features, so what? My fingers are a body feature that brings food to mouth, etc. The fingers are also a feature of a functioning liver, and vice versa. One. Left, right, up, down... as I have demonstrated, is all the same thing, the only difference is Perspective.

It is also funny you are claiming to know the sum total part is unknowable, this seems like contradiction to me, to know something is unknowable.
The sum total of all Perspectives, the sum total of Reality IS KNOWN! by the One Consciousness, of which we are all features. No single Perspective can Know everything due to inherent limitations of Perspectives. Knowledge is experience and we Know what is the experience of each of us unique momentary Perspectives.
So, yes, all is Known as WE are Omni-!
Yet all Perspectives only Know their unique bit (to contribute to the Omni-).
Capisce?
I find it 'funny' that you bypass my simple evidence/logic and keep going off in other directions...
I offered a bit of faultless logic regarding Reality, and it's all inclusivity, and you sailed right past.
Rather than complicating something that need not be so complicated, please feel free to either refute the following 'metaphysical Universe', or accept it;

Existence is ALL inclusive!
Reality is predicated on that which exists.
Thus Reality is ALL inclusive!
Truth is predicated on that which exists/Reality.
Thus Truth is ALL inclusive!

Your definition of reality as all inclusive works under the condition that there is a reality to be included, and your definition is also based on the thoughts/ego that you use to experience reality. You can only say reality is unconditional because your thought/ego does. More conditions! Your very definition of reality is conditioned by thought/ego
Is this an ad-hom fallacy? You are attacking my means of communicating rather than dealing with the Truth that is being (metaphorically or otherwise) illustrated. Need I repeat that all thought/language is necessarily conditional?
Again, I'm not going to play these endless games until you refute, clearly, what I have already offered.
Another question: why would what is unknowable have parts that are knowable? Wouldn't all of what is unknowable be unknowable?
Do you understand what a Perspective is?
See all definitions in all dictionaries and you will have a clue what I am talking about.
All Perspectives are inherently limited and unique!
The experiences, the UNIQUE experiences of all Perspectives are 'uploaded' into a single Consciousness!
This accounts for one Perspective to access Knowledge 'beyond', such as the Knowledge of a 'future' moment.
Accounts for all psy data.
How is it that by conditions(thought/ego) you can know you are unconditional?

Logic will allow 'intellectual' Knowing.
Experience = Knowledge.
The unconditional, like anything else, can only be Known by experiencing it.
Unconditional Love/Enlightenment can only be Known by experiencing it. It is impossible for conditional ego/thought to imagine the unconditional.
Your refutation of this was that conditions are nonexistent.

No! You are going top have to link me to those words of mine!
But I thought reality was all inclusive!

Which IS what I said.
I'm done with this until you feel able to address my basic refutation of your assertion!
No more dissembling!
I'll repeat for the hard of hearing;

Existence is ALL inclusive!
Reality is predicated on that which exists.
Thus Reality is ALL inclusive!
Truth is predicated on that which exists/Reality.
Thus Truth is ALL inclusive!

We are Omni-! Omni- means One! ALL inclusive!

Either accept, and your assertion vanishes (yes, Dorothy, there is a Reality larger than your simple classical material physics (metaphysical)!), or refute any or all of my assertions.
I'd be happy to elucidate, if necessary, just ask.
There is nothing else required.
Time to poop or get off the pot. *__-
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

namelesss wrote: All 'conditions' exist only in 'thought/ego/imagination!
You said this, after I said:
maxcady10001 wrote: What is unconditional can never be known, because it has no conditions!
I have posted these quotes per your request for a link. The implication of the first quote, is that there are no conditions outside of the thought/ego/imagination, which is obvious, but nothing exists outside of thought/ego/imagination! So my earlier claim that what is conditioned (thought/ego/imagination) cannot know what is unconditional, is still valid, and you still refuse to answer to this. You cannot say how what is unconditional can be known, when to know is to be in a conditional relationship. Yes, I know your rebuttal, all is known by all, yet if this is true reality is not unconditional because all is in a conditional relationship with reality. By your own assertions reality is not unconditional!
namelesss wrote: No single Perspective can Know everything due to inherent limitations of Perspectives. Knowledge is experience and we Know what is the experience of each of us unique momentary Perspectives.
So, yes, all is Known as WE are Omni-!
Yet all Perspectives only Know their unique bit (to contribute to the Omni-).
You make several contradictory statements here. You say no single perspective can know everything, yet you claim to know everything knows everything. How can a single perspective know what everything else knows?
You say we know what the unique experience of each of us is momentarily, but how can a single limited perspective know what all other perspectives know?


You also refuse to deal with the quote I provided. I take it could not be refuted.

Existence as all inclusive
I take it existence means anything that has ever been or will be. But what is it to be? It is to experience. How do we experience? Through our sensory organs. The universe is the work of our sensory organs. Therefore we are the work of our sensory organs, therefore our organs are the work of our organs. The first word is problematic!
You cannot possibly say existence is all inclusive, because to be is to experience and whether or not we experience is doubtful. This first assertion also maintains that everything experiences because everything exists.

You are also committing the fallacy of begging the question. When you say existence is all inclusive, this includes reality, and you follow this by saying reality is predicated on that which exists, meaning it exists because of its own existence!

Your logic demonstrates nothing!
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

There is nothing metaphysical!
I win!
......slow hand clap begins
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Namelesss »

Maxcady10001 wrote: December 20th, 2017, 9:07 am
namelesss wrote:
All 'conditions' exist only in 'thought/ego/imagination!

You said this, after I said:

maxcady10001 wrote:
What is unconditional can never be known, because it has no conditions!
Alright, a reasonable response...
I have posted these quotes per your request for a link. The implication of the first quote, is that there are no conditions outside of the thought/ego/imagination, which is obvious,
To a few, perhaps.
but nothing exists outside of thought/ego/imagination!
Are you saying that in a Zen (thoughtless) state, there is not anything in existence to perceive?
So my earlier claim that what is conditioned (thought/ego/imagination) cannot know what is unconditional, is still valid, and you still refuse to answer to this. You cannot say how what is unconditional can be known,
Still true, and you are still conflating Knowledge with 'thought'.
One more time, I am informing you that Knowledge = experience. Not all experience is of 'thought/ego'.
The 'unconditional' CAN be Known, once you update your dictionary for 'Knowledge'!
And it will help your confusion.
namelesss wrote:
"No single Perspective can Know everything due to inherent limitations of Perspectives. Knowledge is experience and we Know what is the experience of each of us unique momentary Perspectives.
So, yes, all is Known as WE are Omni-!
Yet all Perspectives only Know their unique bit (to contribute to the Omni-)."

You make several contradictory statements here. You say no single perspective can know everything, yet you claim to know everything knows everything. How can a single perspective know what everything else knows?
How can you know something about the stew from just a small taste?
When there is a single Universal Consciousness peeking from all eyes, that provides 'access' to that which is beyond our little egoic box.
You say we know what the unique experience of each of us is momentarily, but how can a single limited perspective know what all other perspectives know?
(Not all, ever.)
Because We are One!
Because the limitations of the ego can be transcended, and We can Know!
All Perspectives are of Self!/Truth, all inclusive!
All Perspectives are reflections into the One Consciousness.
Also;
"For every Perspective, there is an equal and opposite Perspective!" - First Law of Soul Dynamics.
Thus, if I see one Perspective, I 'Know' that the opposite is also True.
If mere apparent 'contradictions' throw you, deal with that one. *__-

"Every kind of partial and transitory disequilibrium must perforce contribute towards the great equilibrium of the whole.." - Rene' Guenon
Existence as all inclusive
I take it existence means anything that has ever been or will be. But what is it to be? It is to experience. How do we experience? Through our sensory organs.
"It is not the eye that perceives light and color, nor the ear that perceives sound, nor the brain that perceives thought!"
'Materialism/physicalism' is an obsolete theory.
For instance, with your eyes closed, while you are (night) sleeping, you can be awake and enjoying a sunlit day, perceiving people to talk to, things to do, colors, sounds, textures... all while 'motionless', asleep in bed with senses turned 'off'.
Examples are numerous, the data from sensory deprivation tanks, for another example.
The universe is the work of our sensory organs.
The result of your faulty assumption is this faulty assertion.
Our 'organs' are features of the Universe.
Therefore we are the work of our sensory organs, therefore our organs are the work of our organs. The first word is problematic!
See? The result of faulty science and logic in the assumptions is ... 'problematic'.
You cannot possibly say existence is all inclusive, because to be is to experience and whether or not we experience is doubtful.
Don't be disingenuous.
You cannot honestly say that you doubt your experience! That is the only thing that you can Know!
This first assertion also maintains that everything experiences because everything exists.
No, everything is Known to exist because everything is experienced!
Not anything is Known to exist that is not experienced!
You are also committing the fallacy of begging the question. When you say existence is all inclusive, this includes reality, and you follow this by saying reality is predicated on that which exists, meaning it exists because of its own existence!
Welcome to the world of the unconditional!
You can shut me up in a heartbeat by offering any evidence at all of any single thing that does not exist!
Forget the blah, blah, just offer me a single bit of evidence in refutation and I'll back down from my assertion.
I already Know(!) that you cannot.
So, if you cannot refute, you have no intellectually honest position but to accept (albeit tentatively, but accept nonetheless)!
Your logic demonstrates nothing!
We can logically examine your assertion and tear it to shreds.
What, exactly, is 'nothing' that it can be demonstrated with 'my logic'?

ALL 'meaning' exists in the 'thought/ego' of the beholder! You!
If you find my words fruitless, it is your own reflection.
Others will find them fruitful. ("For every Perspective...!") That is their own reflection...
Perhaps all these words will come flooding back and find meaning in you at some other moment in your life.
Perhaps not.

Whether or not you like it, you cannot refute that everything exists, and with no refutation possible, the best (tentative) theory is that existence/Truth/Reality.. is ALL inclusive!
Logically, that is the ONLY theory that covers ALL contingencies!
Exclusivity is the illusion of the ego.
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Namelesss »

Oh, and about your premature slow clap, perhaps there is some cream that might bring you relief? *__-
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

I've already demonstrated you are committing the begging the question fallacy, so consider your assertions refuted. Saying "welcome to the unconditional" is not a proper response to a complete refutation! All of your assertions say one thing, that reality exists. There is no logic involved.
You say existence is all inclusive.
If existence is all inclusive, reality exists.
Then you say reality is predicated on that which exists.
How can reality be predicated on itself!
Your whole claim is that there is a reality, but you have not included any logic to back up your assertion, you are only saying reality exists.
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

No cream needed, the clap was warranted.
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Namelesss »

Maxcady10001 wrote: December 20th, 2017, 8:10 pm No cream needed, the clap was warranted.
You have dissembled and hemmed and hawed and barely responded to about 10% of what I offered with irrelevant nonsense.
It is the utmost of ignorance to deny that which is beyond the 'physical' (the metaphysical), either disingenuity or just plain ignorance.
I'm done with this.
Unsubscribed from topic as you have nothing to add and neither do I.
Enjoy your clap in the solitude of your ignorance.
Last word is, of course, yours.
Thank you for the conversation.
Good day.
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Welcome
Maxcady10001
Posts: 460
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: How can there be a metaphysical world?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Can someone else please weigh in here?

Did I refute his argument or not?
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by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021