Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Rationalbenny
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Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Rationalbenny » January 7th, 2018, 7:17 pm

Time can often be associated with energy interms of its mystery and unknown beginnings, however I have a predicament.
Is time a concept or an actual force you see if we deduce time to be a relative concept and nothing more like we have with energy then we must ask how can a metaphysical concept have a magnitude effect on the physical nature of our materialistic universe.
Time can arguably be seen as a physical force because its substantiated by the ageing of matter and the decaying of bio/artificial material these all heavily suggest the arrow of a moving force that propels forward and influences everything else with it as it perpetuates in our universe.
Although if time only exists as an ideology and not as a scientific measurement then how and why should this ideology affect the physical universe. And how do we definitively know that the arrow of time perpetuates forward could this not be an extensively elaborate illusion of the mind same way our eyes deceive us when we gaze into the setting of the sun and we our given the illusion that the sun is falling. Would it be that the mind would find it more fitting and satisfactory to deduce the arrow of time so that it may make sense and fall in place with the ordering our lives

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Namelesss » January 8th, 2018, 8:33 am

Rationalbenny wrote:
January 7th, 2018, 7:17 pm
Time can often be associated with energy interms of its mystery and unknown beginnings, however I have a predicament.
Is time a concept or an actual force
'Time' (like the 'motion' and 'space' it describes) exists in/as conditional 'thought/ego'.
In the thought/ego of the beholder.
An 'appearance'.
Time can arguably be seen as a physical force because its substantiated by the ageing of matter and the decaying of bio/artificial material these all heavily suggest the arrow of a moving force that propels forward and influences everything else with it as it perpetuates in our universe.
It would be a weak argument.
How might we describe 'aging' in a Holistic Reality, a Reality that is a synchrony of moments, all manifesting to the One Universal Consciousness... synchronously!
What some Perspectives might perceive as an 'aging process', another sees the very same Reality... from other Perspectives; from one Perspective, I appear as an infant, from another, a dried up old man, and everything in between, even a pile of dust...
All are Here! Now!
(T)Here is One unchanging, all inclusive Reality/Universe, Self!, Here! Now!

Look at a moment, the smallest moment, a Planck moment.
The existence of a Planck moment is insufficient to include 'duration'. That means that what we might perceive as a 'string of moments' = perceived 'time', well, 0+0+0+0..., all the moments of Universal existence, ever, the entire 'limited' amount, the sum total of all... still = 0! *__-
Although if time only exists as an ideology and not as a scientific measurement then how and why should this ideology affect the physical universe.

It doesn't. Not anything affects anything in a Holistic Reality!
There can be no clumsy notion of 'causality/creation' because the time really doesn't exist for anything to 'happen'.
Zeno proved long ago how motion is impossible.
If motion is impossible, we no longer need the theory of 'time' to explain (the mirage of motion).
When examined thoroughly from any angle, 'time' always leads to paradox, a sure sign of error. The error, it turns out, is the assumption of 'time' being anything more than a thought, a 'feeling' (feelings are thoughts).
A flickering shadow of the conditional thoughts/ego.
And how do we definitively know that the arrow of time perpetuates forward could this not be an extensively elaborate illusion of the mind same way our eyes deceive us when we gaze into the setting of the sun and we our given the illusion that the sun is falling. Would it be that the mind would find it more fitting and satisfactory to deduce the arrow of time so that it may make sense and fall in place with the ordering our lives
Correlate the 'arrow of time' to 'the left' in the following illustration;

'Point to the left'.
Easy.
Note where you are pointing.
Now turn 1 degree and point to the left.
Again note the results.
Now another degree, etc...
And another 1/4 of a degree...
Turn in every possible direction, on every possible axis!
It turns out that every direction is 'left', 'left' is a 'cloud needing a particular Perspective to have any 'direction' at all!
Now point to the 'right'!
Same drill!
Note that the exact same cloud of 'left', is also, at the same moment, a cloud of 'right'!
And a cloud of 'up'!
And a cloud of 'down'...
Do the experiment!

The only 'distinctions' that can even be called 'left' or 'right', OR 'up' and 'down'... are a matter of Perspective!

Ultimately, We are One (unchanging (motionless), all inclusive) 'Cloud'/Reality!!

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Maldon007 » January 8th, 2018, 6:16 pm

I read somewhere, sandcastles collapse and become scattered over time, and if time didn't have a distinct direction, they would also occasionally coalesce spontaneously.

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Namelesss » January 8th, 2018, 10:29 pm

Maldon007 wrote:
January 8th, 2018, 6:16 pm
I read somewhere, sandcastles collapse and become scattered over time, and if time didn't have a distinct direction, they would also occasionally coalesce spontaneously.
They all DO 'coalesce/arise' spontaneously/synchronously!
"Reality is a synchrony of moments!"

Each and every timeless (Planck) moment of Universal existence are quantized; the smallest bit, a unit of perception, a 'percept'.
No matter how you add all these timeless moments together, there is still no 'time', no 'movement' (as Zeno proved so long ago) to need to hypothesize time! With no real 'time', that 'arrow' is no more than another mirage, an 'appearance', another illusion of the ego/thought!
I see all sorts of moments 'out of order'! What is commonly called the 'future', or past... Yes, I perceive the 'appearance' of the arrow of which you speak, but I also perceive 'other', beyond that. Experience/Knowledge! *__-

The same goes for 'gravity'!
'Gravity' carrying particles cry the echoes of ignorance in the darkness...

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Maldon007 » January 8th, 2018, 11:39 pm

Zeno, seriously? Those were math tricks, not serious theories.

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Namelesss » January 9th, 2018, 7:09 am

Maldon007 wrote:
January 8th, 2018, 11:39 pm
Zeno, seriously? Those were math tricks, not serious theories.
Nevertheless (summary dismissal noted), I can offer it to you in it's elegant simplicity, if you like, and you can feel free to refute it, logically, if you can.

Whenever 'time' is critically examined, from any Perspective, it ends in paradox, meaning 'error'! The error is the assumption of 'time'.

Every moment of existence exists Now!

"The Laws of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is, into what will be. They are descriptions of patterns that exist, all at once... " - Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman
All 'eternity' at once; Here! Now!!

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Maldon007 » January 9th, 2018, 9:00 am

Please present an example of the time paradox, please.

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by ParadoxicalAlchemist » January 9th, 2018, 2:11 pm

Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but you are implying that time does not exist due to its measurement being "0", however a Plank second is not 0. A plank second has a physical unit of measurement equal to 5.39 × 10 −44 s, you cannot just average this down to zero because that is not it's definition.

I am not attempting to refute your whole argument here because I think there are some aspects of it that are interesting and deserve discourse, but I want clarification on whether you are implying time is 0 or not.

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Namelesss » January 10th, 2018, 2:06 am

Maldon007 wrote:
January 9th, 2018, 9:00 am
Please present an example of the time paradox, please.
There are many "the time paradoxes", as I said, every avenue of the critical, philosophical examination leads to paradox.
I'll give the simplest and most commonly known;

Grandfather Paradox;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox

"The grandfather paradox is a paradox of time travel in which inconsistencies emerge through changing the past.[1] The name comes from the paradox's common description: a person travels to the past and kills their own grandfather before the conception of their father or mother, which prevents the time traveler's existence.[2] Despite its title, the grandfather paradox does not exclusively regard the contradiction of killing one's own grandfather to prevent one's birth. Rather, the paradox regards any action that alters the past,[3] since there is a contradiction whenever the past becomes different from the way it was.[4]"

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Maldon007 » January 10th, 2018, 3:00 am

Doesn't seem like a contradiction, just a creation of a new time line, one of possibly infinite time lines.

Or you could argue the idea of time travel (at least against the flow) is impossible. And compare the grandfather paradox to a question like- If I shove a ten pound watermelon through a drinking straw, and it comes out looking exactly the same on the other end, will it taste different? Trying to determine the taste of such a watermelon is a moot point, since such a watermelon can't exist. Or if it could exist, the information to determine it's taste is missing, since there is no description of what exactly happened to it, during it's travels through the straw or how it came out whole.

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Namelesss » January 10th, 2018, 3:40 am

Maldon007 wrote:
January 10th, 2018, 3:00 am
Doesn't seem like a contradiction, just a creation of a new time line, one of possibly infinite time lines.
Yeah, the 'multiple Universe theory' (to account for multiple timelines), seems a desperate attempt to validate the paradoxical with the absurd.
It cannot withstand critical examination!
Or you could argue the idea of time travel (at least against the flow) is impossible.

And yet we (sort of) do it anyway, many call it 'memory'.
And compare the grandfather paradox to a question like- If I shove a ten pound watermelon through a drinking straw, and it comes out looking exactly the same on the other end, will it taste different? Trying to determine the taste of such a watermelon is a moot point, since such a watermelon can't exist. Or if it could exist, the information to determine it's taste is missing, since there is no description of what exactly happened to it, during it's travels through the straw or how it came out whole.
Perhaps a more appropriate analog would be the absurd question of God making a rock so big that, etc... etc... etc...
That is just an absurd, meaningless, fallacious question to begin.
Like the watermelon.
The Grandfather Paradox is a logical paradox, not an error of logic. The good logic displays the error.
I seem to recall that it might have been Einstein who declared that he eliminated all temporal variables from his equations, and nothing changed! I found that, in itself, rather telling.

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Londoner » January 10th, 2018, 6:23 am

Maldon007 wrote:
January 8th, 2018, 6:16 pm
I read somewhere, sandcastles collapse and become scattered over time, and if time didn't have a distinct direction, they would also occasionally coalesce spontaneously.
I'd say we have to be careful of phrases like 'scattered over time' since they smuggle in the notion of Time as a thing in itself, a sort of conveyor-belt. The idea would be that the moment the sandcastle collapsed the one-way conveyor-belt of Time immediately moves it to another place called 'the past' where it is forever fixed in its collapsed state.

But as I understand it, Time is only a description of the sequence of events. There was a sandcastle. There was a pile of sand. In that order. If we wanted to measure it, we can relate this sequence to another sequence that was going on, like the movement of the hands of a clock. At 1pm there was a sandcastle; at 2pm there wasn't, difference 'one hour'. There is no separate thing; 'Time', or 'one hour', that was involved in the physical collapse of the sandcastle.

In the unlikely event that a pile of sand spontaneously became a sandcastle, we would still have a sequence of events.

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Eduk » January 10th, 2018, 9:06 am

Nameless I'd like to meet up with you for a beer and a chat about time. Next Monday good for you? Then again if you agree to meet next Monday but have no concept of time I guess you might turn up last Monday and we would miss each other?
My point being that time is a useful concept. Zeno proved our everyday (useful) concept of space time is logically flawed. But he didn't propose a solution and saying everything is everything doesn't solve anything. As in your proposal is unactionable.
For my money time, as it is commonly understood, is a flawed concept. As in it is trivial to imagine time travel. But are you imagining the past? Or predicting the past? I would say the latter. I would say there is no time to travel back in. Much in the same way that if I walk from a to be then from b to a I have not undone walking from a to be. I have walked 'forward' twice.
But as to why there is a perception of an arrow then I have no idea. I can say our concept is flawed but I make no guesses about what a better concept might be.
For example why is the speed of the light the speed of light? The answer is unknown.

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Namelesss » January 12th, 2018, 2:19 am

Eduk wrote:
January 10th, 2018, 9:06 am
Nameless I'd like to meet up with you for a beer and a chat about time. Next Monday good for you? Then again if you agree to meet next Monday but have no concept of time I guess you might turn up last Monday and we would miss each other?
Should I, or anyone, agree to meet with you next Monday ('next' Monday never comes, it is always Here! Now! Some Here! Nows are on Monday), your Monday, in your time zone.
Knowing of our proposed meeting, we'll both see whether our paths converge, on Monday. We'll Know... on Monday.
No one can intellectually honestly 100% commit to any 'future' meeting, unless he's a Prophet.
My point being that time is a useful concept.

Of course it is, and I'm not disputing that.
It helps to theorize/define the common experience of 'reality', ie; 'motion'.
Of course, no motion means no necessity for the theory of time.
The flat earth theory was a "useful concept", at the time.
Perhaps the concept might be more 'useful' if we Knew that it is merely a 'local' expedient, rather than a Universal?
Zeno proved our everyday (useful) concept of space time is logically flawed. But he didn't propose a solution and saying everything is everything doesn't solve anything. As in your proposal is unactionable.
Beg pardon? Where, exactly, did I say that "everything is everything"? I find it hard to imagine myself so vapid.
Zeno proved that our perceptions are questionable, to say the least. That sounds like a first step into the Light, as far as I can see, Knowing that your thoughts and feelings are, ultimately, illusion, not the way that Reality is Universally.
For instance, one can as easily ask what difference Enlightenment might make in the day to day activities of life.
Perhaps knowing that We are all One might keep One from predating on 'others' (who are really not 'others').
Perhaps Knowing the nature of 'time' prevents it from being the 'limitation' that it is for so many.
A 'self' (thought/ego) imposed limitation.
For my money time, as it is commonly understood, is a flawed concept.

Don't waste your money! *__-
First, there is the question that without a very limited local context, can a 'concept/thought' ever be 'flawed'?
'Time' only exists as a 'concept/thought/feeling'!
'Time' is imperceptible in the Zen of the Here! Now!, imperceptible in/at any moment!
One can see the Here! Now in two centuries as clearly as the Here! Now! as any Here! Now!
Here! Now!
Our limitation to access to Consciousness is the limitations of the ego, 'time/space' being one.
To transcend the ego/thoughts is to transcend time and space.
As in it is trivial to imagine time travel. But are you imagining the past?

The entirety of Reality is Here! Now! Every moment of Universal existence!
We even imagine/ perceive thoughts of/ the 'past' and 'future', Here! Now!
Or predicting the past? I would say the latter.

I would ask; can you predict Now?
Do we need to?
I would say there is no time to travel back in.

Of course there is, in the imagination! In thought! Where 'The Future' (tm) and 'The Past' (tm) reside. *__-
Yet, that is where everything resides! The 'flickering images' that we perceive, at any unique moment, is not an accurate representation of anything 'out there', any more than what we see on our monitor is an accurate representation of our hard drives.
But as to why there is a perception of an arrow then I have no idea.

We perceive 'motion'. Motion moves through what appears to be a 'causality' loop/spiral.
The best theory to explain our perceived causality loop/spiral is 'time'.
A specific theory to explain a specific mirage.
The same, exactly, can be said of 'gravity'! With no motion/time, what does the theory of gravity explain? It becomes meaningless in a Holistic Reality.
I can say our concept is flawed but I make no guesses about what a better concept might be.
For example why is the speed of the light the speed of light? The answer is unknown.
To Know, transcend your concepts; 'thought/ego' IS the box!

"Be empty of what you know
Your clever mind just whips up
A dust storm of pride.
Allow yourself to be fooled and
peace clowns its way into your heart.

If your head would shatter in wonder
at what Reality really is,
reason’s tyranny would end and
every hair on your head would
become an oracle" - Rumi

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Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Eduk » January 12th, 2018, 5:20 am

Are you seriously asking me what the enlightenment has done for me now today?
Well for one no one is killing me because I'm an atheist. So that's a positive change, from my perspective.

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