Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Frost
Posts: 511
Joined: January 20th, 2018, 2:44 pm

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Frost »

The equations of fundamental physics are time-symmetric, so an essential question is, what breaks that symmetry? In the von Neumann Interpretation of the orthodox quantum formalism, von Neumann suggested that it is the non-physical experiential state of living organisms which actualize a particular quantum state, breaking the time symmetry. In this way, time is emergent as a result of experiential states, but certainly not an Intentionality-dependent phenomena (i.e., not idealism).
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Namelesss »

ParadoxicalAlchemist wrote: January 9th, 2018, 2:11 pm Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but you are implying that time does not exist due to its measurement being "0", however a Plank second is not 0. A plank second has a physical unit of measurement equal to 5.39 × 10 −44 s, you cannot just average this down to zero because that is not it's definition.

I am not attempting to refute your whole argument here because I think there are some aspects of it that are interesting and deserve discourse, but I want clarification on whether you are implying time is 0 or not.
although is see an 'actual' temporal element in the mathematical representation of the Planck moment, it is, ultimately, of no duration to have duration.
It is as 'zero' as .9999... = 1! *__-
More so! (I don't have to ignore the pesky tangent to explain it)
The timeless Planck moment is not a measure of temporal extent, but a single unit of perception, a 'percept', the experience/Knowledge of the Here! Now!
Namelesss
Posts: 499
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Namelesss »

Sorry I didn't answer sooner, but as it was not quoted, or have my non-name, I just stumbled on it it now.
tommarcus
Posts: 95
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 10:54 am

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by tommarcus »

Time is a measurement and does not exist as a force or physical entity itself. It is no different than the measurement of velocity.

How is the measure of time made? It is made by the movement of two or more physical objects relative to each other. Whether the moving atoms in an atomic clock, the vibrating molecules in a crystal, the spring in a watch or the pendulum of a clock, it is about relative motion. Without physical movement, there is no time. Similarly, without motion of a physical object, velocity doesn't exist.

So prior to the existence if the physical universe, there was no time since there was nothing physical that could move. Contrary to popular belief, time is not another dimension. It is firmly a part of the three dimensions of the universe. And therefore any other dimensions are not subject to it.
Wayne92587
Posts: 1780
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Wayne92587 »

The Arrow of Time and motionless Time, the Zero-0 Hour both exist.

The only Time that exists is the Here and Now, the Zero-0 Hour.
Time exists, the existence or non-existence of Time is not Uncertain, is certain, because a object in Space is measurable location and momentum in Time and in Space.

Existence requires that Time Space and Motion, to be relative.

Nothingness, None existence requires Time Space and Motion, to not be relative,
to not exist.

Prior to the beginning of the Creative Process, simply because the relativity of Time Space and Motion did not exist, because the Reality of Everything, Time, Space and Motion, existed as an Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularity having no relative, no numerical value, having a numerical value of Zero-0.

Zero-0, nothing existing as an omnipresent Infinitely Finite Indivisible Singularity, within a State of Nothingness, of Singularity.

Motion in Time beginning at the Zero-0 Hour.

Motion in Space beginning at Point Zero-0.

Motion in the beginning itself at a Standstill, all Singularities being Motionless, having no relative, numerical value having a numerical value of Zero-0.

The Singularity of Motion existing as the insignificant innate, inner motion of a Singularity alone in the Emptiness of Time and Space.

This inner, innate motion, not being measurable, being meaningless, having no measurable angular momentum, velocity of Speed and direction, existed as a Vibration, and oscillation at the heart of, existed as the Inner Passion of a Singularity alone in the Emptiness, as the Everlasting, Eternal source of Pure Unadulterated Heat Energy
User avatar
Thinking critical
Posts: 1793
Joined: November 7th, 2011, 7:29 pm
Favorite Philosopher: A.C Grayling
Location: Perth, Australia (originally New Zealand)

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Thinking critical »

Time can be understood as a concept (the measurement of change) while simultaneously existing as a dimension of a physical reality, without the dimension of time the Universe would be static an unchanging.
The arrow of time is evident in the fact that things which explode don't naturally fall back together into their original form again and at a temporal dimension we can't remember the future.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
Wayne92587
Posts: 1780
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Wayne92587 »

Time, the “Reality” of Time in Space exists only as the Reality of the Moment, the Here and Now, as a Singularity of Zero-0, at the Zero- Hour.

The motion, the angular momentum, the velocity of Speed and direction, the motion of the Arrow of Time having angular momentum, velocity of speed and direction, is used as a coordinated measurement of The relativity of Time and Space of an object as it moves as a, series, as a sequential number of point Singularities in Space-Time which began at the Zero-0 Hour, the Event Horizion..

The Arrow, the motion, the direction of differentiated Time once begun is continuous, Everlasting Eternal, is Infinite Time.

Time, differentiated Time exists as a series of moments that exist as a series of point singularity, the measurable location and momentum of an object as its motion takes it from here to there in Space-Time.

Time being a continuous point at which Time and Space are relative, thus allowing measurability of the location and Momentum of existence of Time in Space-Time.

Time, differentiated Time, is measurable as the Arrow of Time, the motion of an object as it passes through the point in which its location and momentum of an object as it travels about Space Time from one location to another

Differentiated Time as a series of moments, points that are relative as to location and momentum of a Point in which Time and Space are relative represent the arrow of Time is a measurement, series of coordinated movement as to Location and momentum of object as it travels about Space-Time.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Time is - whether you like it or not a concept to describe how the universe works, dripping with experiential metaphor it can never directly represent that which it hopes to describe forever missing the point. This is true of all descriptors of reality.
Wayne92587
Posts: 1780
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Wayne92587 »

I am just trying to point out that in order to speak of Time, it must be known if you are speaking of moment which time exists, the Reality of the moment the here and now, which may or may not only exist as a Planck moment in Time.

The Planck moment is Time is closer to non existence than it is to existence.

A Planck Time is necessary for existence however the measurement of Time is necessary for Living.
Wayne92587
Posts: 1780
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Wayne92587 »

Time, Space and motion were not involved in the Transition of nothing into something.

Time, Space, Motion remained unchanged, remained undifferentiated, each remaining a Singularity having no relative, numerical value, remained a Singularity of Zero-0 until after the beginning moment that the Creative Process began.

Time, Space, and Motion were not relativity until after the beginning moment that the Creative Process began, until after the moment of Creation.
Wayne92587
Posts: 1780
Joined: January 27th, 2012, 9:32 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Hermese Trismegistus

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by Wayne92587 »

Time did not pass by as a Singularity of Zero-0 was converted into a Singularity of one-1, not even a Planck moment in Time.

It looks as though Creation was like the Flip of a Coin.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Time is just one **** thing after another.
You experience that at different rates through your life.
You can speed it up if you go fast.
That really sums it all up.
You can only really describe the universe, there is nothing to explain.
User avatar
SimpleGuy
Posts: 338
Joined: September 11th, 2017, 12:28 pm

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by SimpleGuy »

There are different definitions of time the time arrow comes from thermodynamics, where we state that $ \frac{\delta Q}{T}$ has something to do with the irreversality of a thermodynamic process and this leads to the definition of an ordering function S whose differential can be described via
dU = T dS -pdV where U is the inner enery V is the volume of the material , p is the pressure and T the Temperature. The setting has as a concequence that for all closed systems the state (U,S,V,N) has to increase the entropy at the end. The statistical definition has to be consistent with this definition
($ S = -K_B \sum_i p_i ln(p_i)$) . This is a statistical and thermodynamical definition of time direction the time for a \underline{single} particle cannot be definied via statistics (due to the fact that statistics is based of the underlying physical framework, whatever this framework is like classcal mechanics, quantum mechacics, or special/general relativity).
User avatar
SimpleGuy
Posts: 338
Joined: September 11th, 2017, 12:28 pm

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by SimpleGuy »

By the way if this doesn't suffice i refer to the hitchhikers guide though the galaxy this explains everything.
tommarcus
Posts: 95
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 10:54 am

Re: Time: is time a concept or a physical force and can we prove the arrow of time

Post by tommarcus »

Time is nothing more than a measurement.

Time only exists when two physical objects move relative to each other. Whether it is the atoms in an atomic clock, the pendulum of a clock or the vibration of crystals there is no such "thing" as time. Just like you can't have velocity without motion the movement of something physical. If there is an existence or dimension that has no physical objects within it, then there can be no time.

In the Theory of Relativity time is just another variable. Prior to Einstein, time was considered as a constant. By treating time as a variable, Einstein was able to develop his theory and make predictions which would have been inconsistent with a constant arrow of time. Popular discourse likes to treat time as if it is another dimension. Without the physical world, it doesn't exist, so it is not another dimension.

So what us going on? We kno whine thing for sure and that us nothing in our physical dimensions can travel faster than the speed of light. So as you approach the speed of light, something must change. That thing which we measure is time. But it is not time itself which is changing but the physical objects which we use to measure time. As they approach the speed of light, they can't surpass it, therefore their relative motion to each other is slowed down. That is, it appears that time itself as an object is slowed down.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021